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Little Big Man
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"An Honest Calculation Never Converges. It is effectively . . .
Feb 8th, 2019 at 8:04pm
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. . . infinite."

That was the answer to Trey Gowdy's question, "what do we owe our seniors in terms of medicare?"

The witness first said that convention wisdom is 60 trillion dollars [to pay future medicare bills], but that assumes some miracle change in revenues or payouts that no one has any idea how to bring about.  No known computer can calculate the amount needed to keep medicare's promises under the current and projected conditions absent that miracle.

You tube, "Trey Gowdy Laughs as He Reveals the Country is COMPLETELY SCREWED Financially!" to see it.

So in the most even in the free nation on earth, medical care is literally unsustainable.  Not because there aren't enough doctors and not because people aren't productive enough to earn the money to pay them.  It's because we've promised so much "free" medical care to social security recipients that it is literally impossible to meet our obligations.

Tell me again how government can't do all its wonderful good without being able to forcibly tax producers?



  

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Re: "An Honest Calculation Never Converges. It is effectively . . .
Reply #1 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 7:27am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 8th, 2019 at 8:04pm:
So in the most even in the free nation on earth, medical care is literally unsustainable.  Not because there aren't enough doctors and not because people aren't productive enough to earn the money to pay them.  It's because we've promised so much "free" medical care to social security recipients that it is literally impossible to meet our obligations.
Yes, Medicare was a huge mistake that will bankrupt the nation when operated in conjunction with Social Security.

The private market for both insurance and medical care delivered the worlds best care at reasonable prices established by the market and with quite a lot of charity helping truly destitute people, but it wasn't "prefect" and it wasn't "fair", so "progressives decided to "improve" it.

As is usual, the "progressive" plan sounded wonderful and produced something that all the recipients like and will vote to keep, but it can't be sustained because it has driven up costs beyond the possibility of paying them and it never considered that the demographic would change so that there would be so many recipients and so few people to milk.
  

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Re: "An Honest Calculation Never Converges. It is effectively . . .
Reply #2 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 7:39am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 8th, 2019 at 8:04pm:
Tell me again how government can't do all its wonderful good without being able to forcibly tax producers?



The plans always sound "wonderful good" but turn out badly when implemented, but the government can't do anything at all if they don't have the power to tax.

There is a real need to stop government from trying to do good works and to limit them to doing necessary things, like defend the nation and provide understandable laws that are equally applied and enforced on all.

Of course, there is no Constitutional authority for Medicare. It was enacted under the supposed grant of power to do anything that will "promote the general welfare", but as is obvious, bankrupting the country and taxing productive people to death in order to provide very inexpensive (to the recipients anyway) high quality medical care for some people has not contributed to the common good but is in fact destroying the general welfare. And it's going to get worse. Cry

There are very few things that government can actually do to promote the general welfare.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: "An Honest Calculation Never Converges. It is effectively . . .
Reply #3 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 9:04am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 7:27am:
Yes, Medicare was a huge mistake that will bankrupt the nation when operated in conjunction with Social Security.

The private market for both insurance and medical care delivered the worlds best care at reasonable prices established by the market and with quite a lot of charity helping truly destitute people, but it wasn't "prefect" and it wasn't "fair", so "progressives decided to "improve" it.

As is usual, the "progressive" plan sounded wonderful and produced something that all the recipients like and will vote to keep, but it can't be sustained because it has driven up costs beyond the possibility of paying them and it never considered that the demographic would change so that there would be so many recipients and so few people to milk.


Well said!  The avoidance of considering sustainability was very deliberate. 
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: "An Honest Calculation Never Converges. It is effectively . . .
Reply #4 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 9:06am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 7:39am:
The plans always sound "wonderful good" but turn out badly when implemented, but the government can't do anything at all if they don't have the power to tax.

There is a real need to stop government from trying to do good works and to limit them to doing necessary things, like defend the nation and provide understandable laws that are equally applied and enforced on all.

Of course, there is no Constitutional authority for Medicare. It was enacted under the supposed grant of power to do anything that will "promote the general welfare", but as is obvious, bankrupting the country and taxing productive people to death in order to provide very inexpensive (to the recipients anyway) high quality medical care for some people has not contributed to the common good but is in fact destroying the general welfare. And it's going to get worse. Cry

There are very few things that government can actually do to promote the general welfare.


Exactly.  It was a mistake for "we the people" to empower the federal government to try.

  

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Re: "An Honest Calculation Never Converges. It is effectively . . .
Reply #5 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 9:41am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 9:06am:
Exactly.  It was a mistake for "we the people" to empower the federal government to try.

They were only empowered to do the specific things enumerated in the Constitution. No general powers were granted.

They were never empowered to become "levelers" or to compete in or control free markets or to interfere with our liberty in any way not specifically mentioned in the Constitution. Nor were they empowered to use taxation as a policy tool or give unelected bureaucrats the power to make laws or Presidents the power to start wars. Etc.

The general welfare was to be served for the most part simply by keeping the federal government out of our business.
  

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Re: "An Honest Calculation Never Converges. It is effectively . . .
Reply #6 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 10:29am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 9:41am:
They were only empowered to do the specific things enumerated in the Constitution. No general powers were granted.


But you have said perhaps a dozen times that you can't just read the words of the constitutional articles, sections and amendments, you have to also read contemporaneous writings of the founders to know what they had in mind.  "promote the general welfare" was definitely written contemporaneously with the constitution.

Quote:
They were never empowered to become "levelers" or to compete in or control free markets or to interfere with our liberty in any way not specifically mentioned in the Constitution. Nor were they empowered to use taxation as a policy tool or give unelected bureaucrats the power to make laws or Presidents the power to start wars. Etc.


According to the branch that is empowered with judicial power over cases arising under the constitution, it does.

Quote:
The general welfare was to be served for the most part simply by keeping the federal government out of our business.


States showed themselves over and over to be the enemies of the people.  The federal government has supremacy when they do.



  

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Re: "An Honest Calculation Never Converges. It is effectively . . .
Reply #7 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 10:58am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 9:04am:
Well said!  The avoidance of considering sustainability was very deliberate. 


I believe it arises from the competitive nature of politics.

The politician who can give lots of free stuff now will win over the politician who says no more candy.

Considering sustainability is a handicap a competitive person cannot afford, except in the unlikely situation that no politician capable of existing would ever refrain from considering sustainability.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: "An Honest Calculation Never Converges. It is effectively . . .
Reply #8 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 2:14pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 10:29am:
But you have said perhaps a dozen times that you can't just read the words of the constitutional articles, sections and amendments, you have to also read contemporaneous writings of the founders to know what they had in mind.  "promote the general welfare" was definitely written contemporaneously with the constitution.
You got something right! In fact the phrase is used in the Constitution... You can't get any more contemporaneous than that!

What is important is what they meant when they used the phrase, which can be mostly deduced by where the phrase is located, it's context.

It can also be deduced by how in general the people who used the phrase thought about government and what they were trying to accomplish. If the case of the framers, they thought government was a necessary evil and a dangerous servant that must be strictly limited.

They did not have illusions that government could be safely be empowered to, or even expected to be able to, provide for everyone's welfare. They knew the difference between the terms "general" and "specific" (or individual).

They were well aware that a government with general powers would use those powers to enrich itself and give itself even more power.

It is a fundamental understanding of the entire plan of government they created to imagine that it granted the government the responsibility of looking after every American's welfare.
  

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Re: "An Honest Calculation Never Converges. It is effectively . . .
Reply #9 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 2:27pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 10:29am:
According to the branch that is empowered with judicial power over cases arising under the constitution, it does.
Under is the key word. If a case arises that asks SCOTUS "Is Congress given the power under the Constitution to take control of economic decision making on behalf of the People?", the answer is no, no such grant of power can be found.

The King and his Parliament had far to much power over the British economy, and it was intended to strictly limit such a power of government in America.

The phrase referred to in contention that Congress has been given power to control the nation's economy "to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations and among the Several States" does not refer in any way to the individual economic decisions and activities of individual people, which are to remain free.

It is intended to prevent internal tariffs from being levied by one state against the trade of people in another state, again so individual economic decisions remain free, and to give Congress power to regulate imports from foreign nations by means of uniform tariffs on imported goods.
  

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