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The Opposition
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100 Years Old to Buy Cigarettes?
Feb 8th, 2019 at 9:49pm
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https://futurism.com/ban-cigarette-sales-hawaii-100-years-old

Well, plus to Vulcans!
(Wait a sec... I don't want to smoke... I don't think any Vulcan would.)

Okay then, plus to those deserving Humans who've taken good enough care of their health to reach-
(...Facepalm.)

Yeah...

...Not really getting the point of this.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: 100 Years Old to Buy Cigarettes?
Reply #1 - Feb 8th, 2019 at 10:24pm
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Its a dumb bill.

If the government wants to force people to quit smoking, all they have to do is slap a $20/pack Tax on cigarettes.

Back in 2017, California voters ganged up on cigarette smokers and hit them with a $2-per-pack excise Tax. The smokers complained and whined but we grossly outnumbered them, hah hah...

Cigarette purchases in California dropped nearly 50% in one year!   Sales continue to go down. . . .

If they raised the Cigarette Tax in Hawaii to $20/pack, everyone will give up smoking because it will be too expensive!   Grin    Grin    Grin

Progressives are so good at weaponizing Taxes.  I'm surprised they haven't thought to do this in Hawaii.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Jeff
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Re: 100 Years Old to Buy Cigarettes?
Reply #2 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:20am
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 8th, 2019 at 10:24pm:
Its a dumb bill.

If the government wants to force people to quit smoking, all they have to do is slap a $20/pack Tax on cigarettes.

Back in 2017, California voters ganged up on cigarette smokers and hit them with a $2-per-pack excise Tax. The smokers complained and whined but we grossly outnumbered them, hah hah...

Cigarette purchases in California dropped nearly 50% in one year!   Sales continue to go down. . . .

If they raised the Cigarette Tax in Hawaii to $20/pack, everyone will give up smoking because it will be too expensive!   Grin    Grin    Grin

Progressives are so good at weaponizing Taxes.  I'm surprised they haven't thought to do this in Hawaii.
Somewhere near half of the cigarettes purchased in NYC are smuggled in these days to avoid the high taxes on them in NYC.

That means lots of money is being funneled into criminal enterprises that are probably a lot worse than smuggling or smoking.

Besides, it's un-libertarian and immoral to try to change people's behavior by taxation. Not only that, it's an illegal use of the taxing power.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: 100 Years Old to Buy Cigarettes?
Reply #3 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:57am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:20am:
Somewhere near half of the cigarettes purchased in NYC are smuggled in these days to avoid the high taxes on them in NYC.

That means lots of money is being funneled into criminal enterprises that are probably a lot worse than smuggling or smoking.

Besides, it's un-libertarian and immoral to try to change people's behavior by taxation. Not only that, it's an illegal use of the taxing power.


An "illegal" use of the taxing power?  I certainly believe that it is an immoral use of the taxing power.  How can a law that establishes a tax be illegal?  It's a law.
  

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Jeff
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Re: 100 Years Old to Buy Cigarettes?
Reply #4 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 9:36am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:57am:
An "illegal" use of the taxing power?  I certainly believe that it is an immoral use of the taxing power.  How can a law that establishes a tax be illegal?  It's a law.
Sales taxes are Indirect taxes and must be uniform to be legal. Not all enacted laws are legal.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: 100 Years Old to Buy Cigarettes?
Reply #5 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 10:41am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 9:36am:
Sales taxes are Indirect taxes and must be uniform to be legal. Not all enacted laws are legal.


What is the proper response to an illegal tax?

  

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The Opposition
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Re: 100 Years Old to Buy Cigarettes?
Reply #6 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 10:54am
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 8th, 2019 at 10:24pm:
If they raised the Cigarette Tax in Hawaii to $20/pack, everyone will give up smoking because it will be too expensive!   Grin    Grin    Grin


My mother's cigarette bill was something like $90/week.

You'd be surprised what people will spend on an addiction.

Everything they have.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: 100 Years Old to Buy Cigarettes?
Reply #7 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 11:24am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:20am:
Besides, it's un-libertarian and immoral to try to change people's behavior by taxation. Not only that, it's an illegal use of the taxing power.
Right.


SkyChief wrote on Feb 8th, 2019 at 10:24pm:
Its a dumb bill...
Progressives are so good at weaponizing Taxes.  I'm surprised they haven't thought to do this in Hawaii.


Rep. Creagan's anti-smoker bill (as proposed) is absurd - he wants to raise the smoking age to 100.

Why not raise the smoking age to 150?  or 200?    See how silly this is?

With a heavy excise tax on cigarettes, the smokers get to decide whether they continue to smoke or - - not not the voters or legislators.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Jeff
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Re: 100 Years Old to Buy Cigarettes?
Reply #8 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 3:13pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 10:41am:
What is the proper response to an illegal tax?

What do you think? From what you told me, you think it's to be ready with your gun to shoot the revenuers when they show up to gun you down for not paying. Shocked

The proper response to an illegal tax should be a lawsuit and a court decision to stop levying the illegal tax that the government abides by.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: 100 Years Old to Buy Cigarettes?
Reply #9 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 7:40pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 3:13pm:
What do you think? From what you told me, you think it's to be ready with your gun to shoot the revenuers when they show up to gun you down for not paying. Shocked

The proper response to an illegal tax should be a lawsuit and a court decision to stop levying the illegal tax that the government abides by.


You mean like these cases:

    United States v. Connor[89] (tax evasion conviction under 26 U.S.C. § 7201 affirmed by the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit; taxpayer's argument — that because of the Sixteenth Amendment, wages were not taxable — was rejected by the Court; taxpayer's argument that an income tax on wages is required to be apportioned by population also rejected), at [14];

    Parker v. Commissioner[80] (taxpayer's argument — that wages are not taxable — was rejected by the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit; taxpayer charged double costs for filing a frivolous appeal), at [15];

    Perkins v. Commissioner[117] (26 U.S.C. § 61 ruled by the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit to be "in full accordance with Congressional authority under the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution to impose taxes on income without apportionment among the states"; taxpayer's argument that wages paid for labor are non-taxable was rejected by the Court, and ruled frivolous), at [16];

    Sisemore v. United States[118] (United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit ruled that the federal district court properly dismissed taxpayer's frivolous lawsuit based on taxpayer's tax return position that wages do not represent a taxable gain because wages are a source of income and are received in equal exchange for labor), at [17];

    White v. United States[119] (taxpayer's argument that wages are not taxable was ruled frivolous by the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit; penalty — imposed under 26 U.S.C. § 6702 for filing tax return with frivolous position — was therefore proper);

    Granzow v. Commissioner[120] (taxpayer's argument that wages are not taxable was rejected by the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, and ruled frivolous), at [18];

    United States v. Russell[121] (taxpayer's argument—that the federal income is unconstitutional on the theory that the law cannot tax a "common law right to work"—was rejected by the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit), at [19];

    Waters v. Commissioner[122] (taxpayer's argument that income taxation of wages is unconstitutional was rejected by the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit; taxpayer required to pay damages for filing frivolous suit), at [20].

  

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