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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Propertarianism - Private Property And Contracts (Read 906 times)
SkyChief
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Propertarianism - Private Property And Contracts
Feb 9th, 2019 at 3:00pm
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After some poking around, it's difficult to pin down exactly what this actually is.

The best (simplest) explanation so far:   Propertarianism is the exact opposite of parasitism.

So what is parasitism?  That's basically when one person exploits another person's property for his own benefit.

For example: (hypothetical)

My property is only large enough for my house, my garage, and the hangar where I park my plane.

My neighbor has a farm with 320 acres.  The service road on his farm serves as a perfect airstrip for my plane - its just long enough and just wide enough.

So, I build a path which connects my hangar to the service road, and conduct my flight operations using his service road as a runway.

I don't ask my neighbor's permission to use the service road because I'm never on it for more than 15 seconds.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Little Big Man
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Re: Propertarianism - Private Property And Contracts
Reply #1 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:48pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 3:00pm:
After some poking around, it's difficult to pin down exactly what this actually is.

The best (simplest) explanation so far:   Propertarianism is the exact opposite of parasitism.

So what is parasitism?  That's basically when one person exploits another person's property for his own benefit.

For example: (hypothetical)

My property is only large enough for my house, my garage, and the hangar where I park my plane.

My neighbor has a farm with 320 acres.  The service road on his farm serves as a perfect airstrip for my plane - its just long enough and just wide enough.

So, I build a path which connects my hangar to the service road, and conduct my flight operations using his service road as a runway.

I don't ask my neighbor's permission to use the service road because I'm never on it for more than 15 seconds.


That sounds like parasitism to me.  I would say that is a good example of the tort of conversion, but I'm not a lawyer.

  

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Jeff
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Re: Propertarianism - Private Property And Contracts
Reply #2 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 10:39pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:48pm:
I would say that is a good example of the tort of conversion, but I'm not a lawyer.

"The tort of conversion"?  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Propertarianism - Private Property And Contracts
Reply #3 - Feb 10th, 2019 at 11:17am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:48pm:
That sounds like parasitism to me.  I would say that is a good example of the tort of conversion, but I'm not a lawyer.


Right. It IS parasitism.  And Propertarianism is the exact opposite of parasitism.

Heres the wiki explanation of propertarianism:

A right-libertarian ethical philosophy that advocates the replacement of states with contractual relationships. Propertarian ideals are most commonly cited to advocate for a state or other governance body whose main or only job is to enforce contracts and private property.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propertarianism

  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Propertarianism - Private Property And Contracts
Reply #4 - Feb 10th, 2019 at 12:07pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 11:17am:
Right. It IS parasitism.  And Propertarianism is the exact opposite of parasitism.

Heres the wiki explanation of propertarianism:

A right-libertarian ethical philosophy that advocates the replacement of states with contractual relationships. Propertarian ideals are most commonly cited to advocate for a state or other governance body whose main or only job is to enforce contracts and private property.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propertarianism



In a hypothetical would with no government to protect property rights, the farmer has several relatively easy remedies to the parasitic pilot.  The best in my opinion would be to approach the pilot (who should have initiated this in the first place) and ask the pilot to stop using the road or to come to an agreement on compensation.

If that talk is fruitless, the farmer can easily make his service road unusable as a landing strip but still usable as a service road.  The simplest physical barrier would make landings to dangerous.  A gate across the road, barriers that force vehicles to move in a S shaped pattern, dips or speed bumps, or any number of other methods to discourage landings.

I don't know if this applies to you or not, but one disagreement I have with many libertarians is that they often insist that government should be the first line of defense for property rights which must be protected absolutely.  That is way too expensive to be cost effective in preventing whatever economic damage is done to the farmer.  If it is not economic damages that are the concern, but damage to the principle of private property, I'm fine with government enforcing that principle on behalf the farmer.  So long as the farmer bears the full cost of that enforcement and doesn't use government to require me to pay for his obsession with correcting every slight.
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Propertarianism - Private Property And Contracts
Reply #5 - Feb 10th, 2019 at 1:00pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 12:07pm:
I don't know if this applies to you or not, but one disagreement I have with many libertarians is that they often insist that government should be the first line of defense for property rights which must be protected absolutely. 
IMO, this is the only valid function of government - to protect my rights and my property. That's why I pay taxes.  If gov't is unable (or unwilling) to do these things,  it is useless to me. I'll go somewhere that doesn't have taxes.  And buy me a .50 cal BMG to protect my rights and property.


Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 12:07pm:
That is way too expensive to be cost effective in preventing whatever economic damage is done to the farmer.  If it is not economic damages that are the concern, but damage to the principle of private property, I'm fine with government enforcing that principle on behalf the farmer.  So long as the farmer bears the full cost of that enforcement and doesn't use government to require me to pay for his obsession with correcting every slight.
Actually,  there were no damages to the farmer.  It was only trespassing.

Perhaps it was a bad hypothetical scenario to model Propertarianism.
  

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Re: Propertarianism - Private Property And Contracts
Reply #6 - Feb 10th, 2019 at 3:00pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 12:07pm:
I don't know if this applies to you or not, but one disagreement I have with many libertarians is that they often insist that government should be the first line of defense for property rights which must be protected absolutely.  That is way too expensive to be cost effective in preventing whatever economic damage is done to the farmer.
It doesn't cost much to take him to court for trespass when the courts already exist.

Government enforcement of property rights is not the first line defense, but the last resort, and it tends to protect property rights better at the bitter end than does self enforcement.

If I have a contract with an insurance company and they refuse to honor the contract and pay my legitimate claim, what's my first line of defense to protect my rights? (Yes, I asked them to submit to binding arbitration, but they would only agree if we used the National Insurance Companies Amalgamated Board of Arbitrators.)
  

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Re: Propertarianism - Private Property And Contracts
Reply #7 - Feb 10th, 2019 at 3:13pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 12:07pm:
Hey, I'm back.  Whoa, I love Sundays.  I go down to the garage and let the mechanics ride the train!  Nothing turns me on more than six guys who smell like grease and motor oil!  Of course I've to sit in the tub for two days now to put out the fire below, but it's worth it. 

Anyway, in a hypothetical would with no government to protect property rights, the farmer has several relatively easy remedies to the parasitic pilot.  The best in my opinion would be to approach the pilot (who should have initiated this in the first place) and ask the pilot to stop using the road or to come to an agreement on compensation.

If that talk is fruitless, the farmer can easily make his service road unusable as a landing strip but still usable as a service road.  The simplest physical barrier would make landings to <- you mean too dangerous.  A gate across the road, barriers that force vehicles to move in a S shaped pattern, dips or speed bumps, or any number of other methods to discourage landings.

I don't know if this applies to you or not, but one disagreement I have with many libertarians is that they often insist that government should be the first line of defense for property rights which must be protected absolutely.  That is way too expensive to be cost effective in preventing whatever economic damage is done to the farmer.  If it is not economic damages that are the concern, but damage to the principle of private property, I'm fine with government enforcing that principle on behalf the farmer.  So long as the farmer bears the full cost of that enforcement and doesn't use government to require me to pay for his obsession with correcting every slight.


Again you want only victims of crimes to pay for it.  That's completely different than wanting the user of resources to pay for it.  I'm completely for a gas tax that is equal to all road construction and maintenance costs.  The more you drive, the more you're paying for the roads you're driving on.

But only charging victims for criminal and civil law enforcement is a completely different thing.  That's a massively uneven distribution and having those does benefit us all even if we don't use them.

Your system would devastate inner cities where the poor can't pay for them
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Little Big Man
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Re: Propertarianism - Private Property And Contracts
Reply #8 - Feb 10th, 2019 at 4:50pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 3:13pm:
Again you want only victims of crimes to pay for it.  That's completely different than wanting the user of resources to pay for it.  I'm completely for a gas tax that is equal to all road construction and maintenance costs.  The more you drive, the more you're paying for the roads you're driving on.

But only charging victims for criminal and civil law enforcement is a completely different thing.  That's a massively uneven distribution and having those does benefit us all even if we don't use them.

Your system would devastate inner cities where the poor can't pay for them


You mean the inner-city poor would not get the benefits of the criminal and civil law enforcement that they enjoy now?  What are those benefits, exactly?

Inner-city poor are far more likely to be unarmed victims of police shootings than their affluent suburban counterparts.  Most studies of police on citizen violence concentrate on race, which is the wrong place to look in my opinion.  It is the poverty that is most strongly correlated with being wrongfully shot by police.

But let's stick with the example of the service road used as a runway.  You criticize "anarchists" for wanting less government even when it would lead to more costs and less freedom.  Which would be more costly and less harmful to freedom, the farmer putting a gate across his private road or some kind of law enforcement or civil court action?

How much in damages would you expect the farmer to recover for occasional fifteen second trespasses on his road?  Enough to even cover the court costs?

  

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Re: Propertarianism - Private Property And Contracts
Reply #9 - Feb 10th, 2019 at 5:27pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 4:50pm:
You mean the inner-city poor would not get the benefits of the criminal and civil law enforcement that they enjoy now?  What are those benefits, exactly?

Inner-city poor are far more likely to be unarmed victims of police shootings than their affluent suburban counterparts.  Most studies of police on citizen violence concentrate on race, which is the wrong place to look in my opinion.  It is the poverty that is most strongly correlated with being wrongfully shot by police.

But let's stick with the example of the service road used as a runway.  You criticize "anarchists" for wanting less government even when it would lead to more costs and less freedom.  Which would be more costly and less harmful to freedom, the farmer putting a gate across his private road or some kind of law enforcement or civil court action?

How much in damages would you expect the farmer to recover for occasional fifteen second trespasses on his road?  Enough to even cover the court costs?



"Inner-city poor are far more likely to be unarmed victims of police shootings than their affluent suburban counterparts."  Therefore it's OK that the police don't go there at all, according to you.

And that I think government should be available in property disputes means I'm against working it out between private citizens.

Just repeating your arguments and how flat out stupid you are
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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