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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants" (Read 1007 times)
Jeff
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #10 - Feb 10th, 2019 at 6:09pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 5:09pm:
Are you saying that people cannot delegate a power to others unless they already have that power themselves?

No, I'm saying that the delegation of legislative powers to executive branch agencies alters the Constitution, which says all legislative powers are vested in Congress.

Congress can't legally alter the Constitution any more than the S. Ct. can or the President can.

No branch of the federal government can delegate the powers it is granted to anyone.
  

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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #11 - Feb 10th, 2019 at 6:14pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 5:21pm:
The interstate commerce clause.


Gives limited powers to Congress. There is no need of a Dept. of Commerce in the Executive branch because the regulation that Congress can engage in amounts to banning internal tariffs by the states and imposing tariffs on imports. The Treasury Dept. can collect the tariffs.

Pick something else, since you seem to think that every power granted to Congress requires a bureaucracy.

For the first 150 years, the Executive got by just fine with with a small office and a couple of clerks for most bureaus.

Were you meaning that you think the commerce clause justifies having OSHA and the FCC?
  

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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #12 - Feb 10th, 2019 at 8:42pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 6:09pm:
No, I'm saying that the delegation of legislative powers to executive branch agencies alters the Constitution, which says all legislative powers are vested in Congress.


Which would include the power to create regulating agencies, unless the constitution specifically excluded that from "all."

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Congress can't legally alter the Constitution any more than the S. Ct. can or the President can.

No branch of the federal government can delegate the powers it is granted to anyone.


Where does it say that in the constitution?


  

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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #13 - Feb 10th, 2019 at 8:49pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 6:14pm:
Gives limited powers to Congress. There is no need of a Dept. of Commerce in the Executive branch because the regulation that Congress can engage in amounts to banning internal tariffs by the states and imposing tariffs on imports. The Treasury Dept. can collect the tariffs.

Pick something else, since you seem to think that every power granted to Congress requires a bureaucracy.


No, sir.  That's you:

(From another post)

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Just for instance, the Constitutional grant of power to Congress to tax makes the creation of a Treasury Dept. necessary and proper. The power of Congress to declare war makes the creation of a War Dept. necessary and proper.


I disagree.  Congress could declare war and the president/commander in chief could just fight it.  The congress could levy a tax and take custody of the tax revenue to make sure it is spent as they legislate. 

However, since congress has the power "To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof," they clearly have the constitutional authorization to vest whatever powers they like in whatever departments they create.

You can disagree with the wisdom of doing that, but - and this is the big point you often miss - the fact that you disagree with something does not mean it violates the constitution.  It isn't the "Jeffstitution."

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For the first 150 years, the Executive got by just fine with with a small office and a couple of clerks for most bureaus.

Were you meaning that you think the commerce clause justifies having OSHA and the FCC?


"Justifies," no.  No piece of paper could justify those huge wasteful bureaucracy exist.  But if your basis for determining legitimacy is the U.S. Constitution, then of course that particular piece of paper provides all the legitimacy those wasteful behemoths need. 

Hence, I am less than impressed with the constitution.

  

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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #14 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 6:56am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 8:42pm:
Which would include the power to create regulating agencies, unless the constitution specifically excluded that from "all."


That isn't the way the Constitution works.  It's the other way around.   The legislature has only those powers granted to it.  It does not have all powers other than those excluded.  They ignore that, but that doesn't change what the Constitution says


Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 8:42pm:
Where does it say that in the constitution?


Article Five.

My God, your knowledge of the Constitution is terrible.  Maybe you should learn what it says before you comment on it



  

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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #15 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 7:02am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 8:49pm:
"Justifies," no.  No piece of paper could justify those huge wasteful bureaucracy exist.  But if your basis for determining legitimacy is the U.S. Constitution, then of course that particular piece of paper provides all the legitimacy those wasteful behemoths need. 

Hence, I am less than impressed with the constitution.



We'd be a lot better off if we focused on reducing the Federal government to those powers it is authorized to perform than pushing it to not do the things it is empowered to do.

You are a fake libertarian, but you have that trait of libertarians down pat.  Libertarians keep themselves inconsequential by nit picking the details while ignoring the big gaping wounds.  That man's been shot!  Oh, and he has a hang nail.  Let's start with the hang nail ...
  

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Jeff
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #16 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 8:37am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 8:42pm:
Which would include the power to create regulating agencies, unless the constitution specifically excluded that from "all."
No, there must be a specific enumerated power granted that requires a "regulating agency" for the creation of an agency or department to be "necessary and proper. A Bureau of Indian Affairs could be justified as necessary and proper.
  

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Jeff
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #17 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 8:40am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 8:49pm:
I disagree.  Congress could declare war and the president/commander in chief could just fight it.  The congress could levy a tax and take custody of the tax revenue to make sure it is spent as they legislate. 


That "could" happen but having a Dept. of War to maintain a minimum level of readiness to make war is pretty obviously a necessary and proper department to have.
  

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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #18 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 8:44am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 8:49pm:
However, since congress has the power "To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof," they clearly have the constitutional authorization to vest whatever powers they like in whatever departments they create.


The point is, it must be necessary and proper for Congress to create a dept. or agency, and the necessity can only arise under a power already granted by the Constitution.

That Congress thinks something is necessary doesn't magically grant them the power to do it.
  

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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #19 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 8:53am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 8:49pm:
"Justifies," no.  No piece of paper could justify those huge wasteful bureaucracy exist.  But if your basis for determining legitimacy is the U.S. Constitution, then of course that particular piece of paper provides all the legitimacy those wasteful behemoths need. 
I was using the term "justifies" in a legal sense, as in saying "the legitimate actions of government must be justified in law."

Your contention is that the commerce clause, the power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes" grants legal authority to the government to create OSHA or the FCC?

You must be referring to the "commerce... among the several states" part? And you're willing to accept the New Deal Courts "interpretation" of that to mean that it's a grant of power to control anything and everything within the entire United States that has any connection to commerce at all?

Would you go so far as to say the commerce clause would allow the federal government to have you force fed because your failure to eat was "affecting" interstate commerce? Why not?
  

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