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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants" (Read 986 times)
Jeff
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #20 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 8:57am
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kaz wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 7:02am:
We'd be a lot better off if we focused on reducing the Federal government to those powers it is authorized to perform than pushing it to not do the things it is empowered to do.

Please see my above reply to the Sack.

Are you saying you believe the federal government is granted power to control whatever commerce it decides to control?
  

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kaz
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #21 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:02am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 8:57am:
Please see my above reply to the Sack.

Are you saying you believe the federal government is granted power to control whatever commerce it decides to control?


There is no possible way to get that out of what I said
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #22 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:07am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 8:53am:
I was using the term "justifies" in a legal sense, as in saying "the legitimate actions of government must be justified in law."

Your contention is that the commerce clause, the power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes" grants legal authority to the government to create OSHA or the FCC?

You must be referring to the "commerce... among the several states" part? And you're willing to accept the New Deal Courts "interpretation" of that to mean that it's a grant of power to control anything and everything within the entire United States that has any connection to commerce at all?


Yes, because that was how the framers expected it to be interpreted.   We know this because the constitution itself states that its purpose is (among other things) to "promote the general welfare."

Quote:
Would you go so far as to say the commerce clause would allow the federal government to have you force fed because your failure to eat was "affecting" interstate commerce? Why not?


Of course it would.  The federal government has done much worse under the powers granted it by the constitution.  The constitution =/= good.

I don't think you get that I believe that the constitution sucked from day one and sucks even worse now.  You still don't understand that I don't hold that putrid document as a sacred guide to right and wrong.

As intended, that document strengthened the central government, starting of course by giving it wide powers to tax.  As intended that document has been the basis for increasing central power and increasing taxes.  It is about as far from libertarian as it can get.

I would wipe my ass with that old piece of paper, but only if there were no better paper available. 




  

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Jeff
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #23 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:14am
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kaz wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:02am:
There is no possible way to get that out of what I said
From your statement, it's possible to imagine that you think the commerce clause is an unlimited grant of power that is legitimate because it exists in the Constitution, and further that we shouldn't worry about it until later...

I'm happy to know you don't feel that way. Smiley
  

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Jeff
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #24 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:19am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:07am:
Yes, because that was how the framers expected it to be interpreted.   We know this because the constitution itself states that its purpose is (among other things) to "promote the general welfare."
In your fantasy, you imagine that the founders believed that giving the federal government total control of the economy of the nation, even to the individual level, would be good for the country as a whole? Cheesy

Certainly the slavers didn't think that, unless they were stupid... Why, slavery could have been eliminated by a regulation from the Dept. of Commerce if your interpretation is correct...
  

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kaz
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #25 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:29am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:14am:
From your statement, it's possible to imagine that you think the commerce clause is an unlimited grant of power that is legitimate because it exists in the Constitution, and further that we shouldn't worry about it until later...

I'm happy to know you don't feel that way. Smiley


You can see anything you want to three through the bottom of a whiskey bottle. 

kaz:  Let's focus first on limiting the Federal government to only those things it is actually empowered to do

Jeff:  Aha, so you don't think the Federal government has limits!

And you ask me why I keep insulting you
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #26 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:37am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:07am:
Of course it would.  The federal government has done much worse under the powers granted it by the constitution.
I don't think there's anything worse than having a government in control of the economy.

Certainly if used to it's full extent, the power that is claimed to be granted by the commerce clause would make individual liberty and rights to property disappear.

Surely you don't think that was one of the intentions of the framers, or that the preservation of the Blessings of Liberty would be served by such a grant of power?
  

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Jeff
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #27 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:39am
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kaz wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:29am:
And you ask me why I keep insulting you
I never asked that. Please don't attribute things to me that I didn't say. Thanks.

BTW, what do you think about the Sack's interpretation of the commerce clause? He does have the New Deal Court behind his theory...
  

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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #28 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 10:27am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:39am:
Please don't attribute things to me that I didn't say. Thanks.

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

OMG, the hypocrisy ...
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #29 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 10:57am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:37am:
I don't think there's anything worse than having a government in control of the economy.

Certainly if used to it's full extent, the power that is claimed to be granted by the commerce clause would make individual liberty and rights to property disappear.

Surely you don't think that was one of the intentions of the framers, or that the preservation of the Blessings of Liberty would be served by such a grant of power?


Clearly, the founders believed that elected representatives - so long as they were elected only by white male landowners - were more wise than the average person.  So the founders laid out a constitution that purported to limit the power of the central government, but which actually allowed the elected officials to work around the limits.
  

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