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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants" (Read 985 times)
The Opposition
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #40 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 10:10pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 10:03pm:
I see what you did there.  Lame, buddy.

Libertarians don't trust people or politicians to make our decisions for us.

Trusting people to libertarians means trusting ourselves.  We are people ...

Seriously, that's your argument?  That libertarians don't trust people because we don't want people making our choices for us?  You didn't think that one through.  A genius wouldn't have walked into that door ...


If you're still going to call me an idiot, then there's no reason for me to switch sides and start attacking Burnsy like you do.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #41 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 7:01am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 10:10pm:
If you're still going to call me an idiot, then there's no reason for me to switch sides and start attacking Burnsy like you do.


So to you, truth is determined by what side you're on.  You are an American
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #42 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 7:58am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 5:16pm:
How do you reconcile your belief that property rights are an essential foundation of individual liberty with your belief that government’s power/right to tax is only limited by having multiple branches of government...
The power to tax is (supposed to be) limited by the rule of apportionment for Direct taxes and the rule of uniformity for Indirect taxes. (I know you can't understand how that would work, and I've been unable to explain it to you. Sorry.)

It's the ability to make laws that is made difficult by dividing the government into branches representing different interests (having different constituencies to put it a more modern way).

That difficulty in agreeing on laws extends to making tax laws too, which is an additional limit on taxes. The House might want to tax the rich, but the Senate, being composed of people appointed by State Legislatures, will generally oppose taxing the rich, since most of the people who appointed them are pretty much "the rich" as will be the Senators themselves.

Requiring that all bills related to taxation originate in the House makes it unlikely that the House will choose to tax the people that elected them... But that's contingent on having free and fair elections so elected representatives are easy to get rid of instead of hanging around for 30-40 years.
  

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Jeff
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #43 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 8:08am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 8:38pm:
If the founders trusted people more than politicians, why did they allow such a tiny fraction of them (people) to vote for the politicians?


Actually the Founders hoped that politicians wouldn't exist, that what they called factions would not arise.

They believed that by creating such a limited government, with more duties than power, that most people would not want to serve in the government.

With no opportunities to gain power and wealth through the government, only civic minded people would make the sacrifice to become Senators or Representatives or President.

Once the power of the government was made unlimited, it was obvious that people who were good at politicking could get elected and be powerful and become rich, so they did, and civic minded people making personal sacrifices to serve in the government became rare.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #44 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 9:53am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 7:58am:
The power to tax is (supposed to be) limited by the rule of apportionment for Direct taxes and the rule of uniformity for Indirect taxes. (I know you can't understand how that would work, and I've been unable to explain it to you. Sorry.)


I understand how you think that it would work to limit taxes.  But the fact is that it did not work.   The reason it did not work is that Americans are great at finding work-arounds.  So when congress wanted unlimited power to tax, they found a way to work around the constitution.  The USSC of course allowed that, because they are as dependent on unlimited taxes as the rest of the government.

Once government has the power to tax, property rights must be secondary to that power, by definition.  A right that is secondary to a government power is not a right at all, but a license, a privilege, a tolerance, or what have you by the government that we may keep whatever property the government does not choose to take. 

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That difficulty in agreeing on laws extends to making tax laws too, which is an additional limit on taxes. The House might want to tax the rich, but the Senate, being composed of people appointed by State Legislatures, will generally oppose taxing the rich, since most of the people who appointed them are pretty much "the rich" as will be the Senators themselves.

Requiring that all bills related to taxation originate in the House makes it unlikely that the House will choose to tax the people that elected them... But that's contingent on having free and fair elections so elected representatives are easy to get rid of instead of hanging around for 30-40 years.


Elections don't limit taxes, they compel the expansion of taxes.  Elected representatives are so hard to get rid of exactly because they have the power to tax.  So they sell their constituents on taxes that "others" will pay while their constituents reap the benefits.  Nothing in the constitution prevents us from voting out the extreme taxers, but we vote them in again and again.

  

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SkyChief
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #45 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:20pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 9:53am:
Nothing in the constitution prevents us from voting out the extreme taxers, but we vote them in again and again.


Right. This is why there needs to be a Voter Proficiency Exam.

The electorate has many ignorant and misinformed people that need to be weeded out.
  
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Jeff
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #46 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 2:55pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 9:53am:
I understand how you think that it would work to limit taxes.  But the fact is that it did not work.
Yes, the limits stopped working right after the government started to ignore them.
  

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Jeff
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #47 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 2:59pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 9:53am:
Nothing in the constitution prevents us from voting out the extreme taxers, but we vote them in again and again.
As I've often said, giving the TwoParties control of the electoral process is a mistake, but the underlying problem is the unlimited power that the New Deal Court "found" in the commerce clause and the general welfare clause. That much power means that vast wealth will be available for redistribution, and politicians will will do whatever it takes for them to get in on it and get rich.
  

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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #48 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 3:00pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:20pm:
Right. This is why there needs to be a Voter Proficiency Exam.

Don't you think the 14th Amendment will have to be changed to do that?
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: "If We Only had One Branch, It Would do Whatever the Heck it Wants"
Reply #49 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 3:02pm
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Little Big Man wrote Today at 9:53am:
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I understand how you think that it would work to limit taxes.  But the fact is that it did not work.


Jeff wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
Yes, the limits stopped working right after the government started to ignore them.


If the limits are that easy to ignore - which they are - they're not really limits.

  

Snarky no more!
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