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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is there a Libertarian case for Climate Action? (Read 817 times)
Jeff
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Re: Is there a Libertarian case for Climate Action?
Reply #10 - Feb 17th, 2019 at 6:37pm
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roycarn wrote on Feb 17th, 2019 at 5:35pm:
We know that climate change throuhg CO2 will cause damage...
Unless it saves us from another ice age... Right now, the growing seasons in temperate zones are a bit longer than they have been in recent historical times, making it easier to grow more food. Smiley
  

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Jeff
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Re: Is there a Libertarian case for Climate Action?
Reply #11 - Feb 17th, 2019 at 6:42pm
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roycarn wrote on Feb 17th, 2019 at 6:03pm:
So where does it say in the Democrats' platform that they oppose nuclear and fracking?
They aren't stupid enough to put it in their Party Platform, geez!

Look at their history. They've effectively stopped construction of nuclear power plants for, what, 50 years?

And they've fought tooth and nail to stop fracking and pretty effectively brainwashed people against it. There are "No Fracking Here" signs all around where I live, and where I live, there there is no oil or natural gas in the ground. Cheesy

They also effectively halt pipeline construction, which is another insane thing to do.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Is there a Libertarian case for Climate Action?
Reply #12 - Feb 17th, 2019 at 8:34pm
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roycarn wrote on Feb 17th, 2019 at 5:35pm:
We know that climate change throuhg CO2 will cause damage, but the problem is once you start hurting someone, it becomes impossible to stop (after a certain point that is and we may or may not have crossed it). Imagine a factory polluting a river and once it reaches the nearest town the polluter finds that it is physically impossible to shut down the stream of pollutants and new well beforehand that such a situation would occur. Would government action be justified in preventing the pollution before it reached the town?


If you can prove that it will.

If you can't, the libertarian solution is to allow the action, and collect as much damages as you can after the fact.

This is not a perfect world, and the alternative is to stop the action if someone thinks it'll cause damage, which I hope you can see is worse.

I might think you'll shoot somebody with that gun. Too bad for me. If the situation is immediate and clearly dangerous, I can self-defend, but if not, I just have to let you have your freedom.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: Is there a Libertarian case for Climate Action?
Reply #13 - Feb 18th, 2019 at 7:00am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 17th, 2019 at 8:34pm:
If you can't, the libertarian solution is to allow the action, and collect as much damages as you can after the fact.
You do understand that this has a deterrent effect, right?

If I know that my actions that result in polluting your well will result in my having to provide you and your family with clean safe water as long as you live in your house, and to the rest of the people whose wells are drawing from the same water source as well, I am likely to be very careful to not pollute your water.

If I will be held responsible for polluting your water with something that causes illness or physical harm to you or your family and neighbors, and I know I am likely to be financially ruined and perhaps jailed for reckless endangerment, I will be even more careful.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Is there a Libertarian case for Climate Action?
Reply #14 - Feb 18th, 2019 at 7:02am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 17th, 2019 at 8:34pm:
If the situation is immediate and clearly dangerous, I can self-defend, but if not, I just have to let you have your freedom.
You're starting to grasp some of the essentials! Congratulations.
  

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kaz
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Re: Is there a Libertarian case for Climate Action?
Reply #15 - Feb 18th, 2019 at 8:36am
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roycarn wrote on Feb 17th, 2019 at 6:03pm:
So where does it say in the Democrats' platform that they oppose nuclear and fracking? Maybe the Green party hold that view, but I doubt many Democrats do


Um ... OK.  So you obviously don't follow American politics.   Interesting you chose to write on an American political message board then.  So where are you from that environmentalists are actually concerned with the environment?  Sounds cool.  It's not the case here.  Our environmentalists are Marxists.  They don't care about the environment at all.  They just want to elect politicians in the name of the environment who will crush us with government spending

roycarn wrote on Feb 17th, 2019 at 6:03pm:
How exactly did we supposedly "clean up our mess" while other, non-western countries haven't? LAst I checked coal is still the number 1 source of electricity in the us.


Hmm.  And you don't follow environment issues either.  Asking butt stupid questions is not an effective debate tactic if you want to get anywhere.  It's just being a pest.  A car in the US generates 4% the emissions a car in the sixties did.  Our power production produces a fraction of what power plants used to produce.  We generate so much more energy than in the sixties, yet our emissions are about the same.

Again, I'm going to lose interest in this fast if you're going to pretend you don't know anything about anything

roycarn wrote on Feb 17th, 2019 at 6:03pm:
As such, I don't see why you think that the left is just using climate change to advance their own (nefarious?) agenda which only consists of more government intervention in the economy.


Surrrrreeeeeee you don't.  Skippy.

Both for example a feminist and an environmentalist could chose to be Democrats.   But why would the environmentalist have the exact same positions as the feminist on environmentalism, feminism, the military, socialism and every other issue?
  

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ahhell
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Re: Is there a Libertarian case for Climate Action?
Reply #16 - Feb 18th, 2019 at 12:54pm
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There is, externalities are a thing and simply waiting for another 20 years for me to be damaged by global warming in order to sue......who exactly?  Everyone else?  Doesn't make any sense.  There isn't a very good libertarian course of action though, which is why libertarians are so reluctant to even admit its a thing and end up resorting to what how amounts to conspiracy theories. 

Of course, the so called greens make it easy to resort to conspiracy theories by proposing things like the Green New Deal which makes far more sense as an attempt to switch the US to a socialist economy than as legislation to address climate change or any other environmental concerns.  How exactly will a universal basic income address climate change?

So, its not perfect but if we accept anthropogenic climate change as a real thing, then a tax on emissions is the most libertarian solution and the most likely to generate actual innovation.
  
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Re: Is there a Libertarian case for Climate Action?
Reply #17 - Feb 18th, 2019 at 1:20pm
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ahhell wrote on Feb 18th, 2019 at 12:54pm:
There is, externalities are a thing and simply waiting for another 20 years for me to be damaged by global warming in order to sue......who exactly?  Everyone else?  Doesn't make any sense.  There isn't a very good libertarian course of action though, which is why libertarians are so reluctant to even admit its a thing and end up resorting to what how amounts to conspiracy theories. 

Of course, the so called greens make it easy to resort to conspiracy theories by proposing things like the Green New Deal which makes far more sense as an attempt to switch the US to a socialist economy than as legislation to address climate change or any other environmental concerns.  How exactly will a universal basic income address climate change?

So, its not perfect but if we accept anthropogenic climate change as a real thing, then a tax on emissions is the most libertarian solution and the most likely to generate actual innovation. 


Well, again, there are exactly two things that would have a major impact today and in the next couple decades on carbon emissions, and the left opposes both of them.  Nuclear power and fracking for natural gas.  All other solutions for the foreseeable future are not within our technical capabilities or they would destroy our economy.

Since their intentions are dishonest, I would never support a carbon tax because it will be designed to accomplish their actual objective, socialism and government power
  

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ahhell
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Re: Is there a Libertarian case for Climate Action?
Reply #18 - Feb 18th, 2019 at 2:22pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 18th, 2019 at 1:20pm:
Since their intentions are dishonest, I would never support a carbon tax because it will be designed to accomplish their actual objective, socialism and government power
How would it do so?


It would however reduce the relative cost of fracking and nuclear power.
  
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kaz
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Re: Is there a Libertarian case for Climate Action?
Reply #19 - Feb 18th, 2019 at 2:25pm
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ahhell wrote on Feb 18th, 2019 at 2:22pm:
How would it do so?


It would however reduce the relative cost of fracking and nuclear power. 


Seriously?  You don't know how cap and tax would further socialism?  That's their carbon tax plan.

You're so naive.  Government never does anything that is designed to accomplish its stated goal.  Ever
  

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