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genepool
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Why I am not fully libertarian and what's my solution
Feb 19th, 2019 at 2:25am
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I am a moderate libertarian. However, I think some statist policy is good. And not all can be easily replaced by market equivalent. Not yet at least.

Also CMIIW. What counts as statist may vary. For example, does having public polices instead private police statism?

Some of the idea may be wrong. However, the idea here "have a case". For example, it is possible that government solution is better than the market solution. It may not be, but there is a reasonable case that it may.

Some goods have very high transaction costs. A resources allocation in case of elot of externalities can be corrected well by governments.

Well, government itself is statist. To have one centralized power that guard security is pretty cost effective compared to competing "private polices" that probably wage war against each other.

If we have private police, what would stop some dictators to just pay those polices to silent opponents? So a democratic system where people can't easily become dictators is a plus.

Confucius once found a woman that avoid paying taxes by not living in a city. The woman's husband was eaten by tiger. http://www.sacred-texts.com/cfu/eoc/eoc10.htm .

Here, we can say that a king that found a city provide a service. No body forces that woman to live in his city. In fact, the woman that don't want to pay tax avoid paying taxes and are not punished in anyway. They just get eaten by lions. Hence, founding a city and maintaining it, which is a government and hence statist function, improves economy.

US government is a relatively capitalistic countries. Without US government you will have to deal with Osama bin Laden and Kim Jong Un yourself. Most of us do not have the political skills and power to deal with them. So forming a government that's reasonably capitalistic add value to economy.

When government build infrastructure, the total economic result can often be more than the cost of the roads. The roads improve land value. Places connected by the road see the land value improves. In a sense, building roads cause "positive" externalities to land owners.

Again it's hard to privatize road building. If you just charge toll, you underbuild road. If you ask money from every land owners whose land value improves, then a single land owner that doesn't want to will make the whole thing fail. So a government that decide to tax land and build road can improve economy.

Existence of police also add values to economy. Most of us are alive simply because murder is illegal. Here, collapse of government results in chaos and looting. So the government have some benefits there.

Governments can also standardize things.

Imagine if there is no rule against putting harmful substances in supermarket? Well, that doesn't mean we all gonna get poisons. What will happen is people will only buy from trusted vendors. But then we have very few big businesses that can be trusted.

Having governments giving standard that food labeling must be honest, does not contain poison, etc allow more biz to thrive. Now I can go to local small market knowing that that my food will be save. I know that because the owner of that small market will go to jail if it isn't.

Some libertarians may say that forced labeling on food is not a statist policy but part of normal government's function in preventing fraud. However, what's exactly the standard is need to be decided by "somebody". So having a government does that may improves economy.

Governments also institute marriage. Before paternity tests, there is no easy way to know who the child of a man is. Hence, without knowing that, men cannot know how to inherit his wealth accurately. By institution of marriage, men that knows that he can inherit his wealth to his children will work harder. That improves economy.

Of course, now, marriage is totally useless in this regard because we can always check paternity. This is one of a sample where statist action, namely defining marriage, may have been good economically in some situation, but bad in another situation.

Governments often and can force people to get vaccinated. That is actually a good thing. People don't die and that means economy improves. Gee. I wonder why not getting vaccinated is legal but porn sometimes isn't. But that's beyond this question.

Let's examine something more controversial. Can statist racial discrimination be good for economy? Well, Israel discriminate against muslims in their airport and that leads to safer airports. So that's statist, not libertarian, but add value to economy.

The same way, muslim countries discriminate against jews and non muslims. That too add value to the economy because it protects their people's feeling from ideas obnoxious to them.

In fact, separating people that don't get along with each other through discrimination actually add value for both people. I am pretty confused with the way liberal democracy works. Why don't they discriminate based on race and religions to the point of absolute?

If some people like to kill those who blaspheme Muhammad and some people like to draw Muhammad cartoon, those people shouldn't live together and statist discrimination would improve life of both.

There are many problems that government, and only government can solve. The fact that governments' solution make the problem even worse is a different story.
  
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kaz
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Re: Why I am not fully libertarian and what's my solution
Reply #1 - Feb 19th, 2019 at 7:58am
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genepool wrote on Feb 19th, 2019 at 2:25am:
I am a moderate libertarian. However, I think some statist policy is good


You don't know what the word "statist" means.  Labeling food doesn't make one a statist.  You may want to invest in a dictionary.

You obviously haven't looked up what an anarchist either.  Calling libertarians anarchists is like calling animals panda bears.  A few animals are pandas.  Most are not
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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SkyChief
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Re: Why I am not fully libertarian and what's my solution
Reply #2 - Feb 19th, 2019 at 11:35am
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genepool wrote on Feb 19th, 2019 at 2:25am:
Confucius once found a woman that avoid paying taxes by not living in a city. The woman's husband was eaten by tiger.

the woman that don't want to pay tax avoid paying taxes and are not punished in anyway.


Instead of an Income Tax, there was a Window Tax in England and Wales [1696].

The Tax Assessor would simply count the number of windows!

A flat-rate house tax of 2 shillings per house, plus a progressive tax for the number of windows above 10 windows in the house.

Properties with between 10 and 20 windows paid an extra 4 shillings.

Properties with more than 20 windows paid an extra 8 shillings.

How to cheat the Tax Man?     Simple.      Board up the windows!    And so they did.

Lumber mills made a killing during Tax time!   Grin    Grin    Grin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_tax
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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kaz
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Re: Why I am not fully libertarian and what's my solution
Reply #3 - Feb 19th, 2019 at 5:32pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 19th, 2019 at 11:35am:
Instead of an Income Tax, there was a Window Tax in England and Wales [1696].

The Tax Assessor would simply count the number of windows!

A flat-rate house tax of 2 shillings per house, plus a progressive tax for the number of windows above 10 windows in the house.

Properties with between 10 and 20 windows paid an extra 4 shillings.

Properties with more than 20 windows paid an extra 8 shillings.

How to cheat the Tax Man?     Simple.      Board up the windows!    And so they did.

Lumber mills made a killing during Tax time!   Grin    Grin    Grin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_tax


In colonial times, they were taxed by the number of rooms they had.  They counted a closet as a room.  That's why when you go to colonial homes like Mount Vernon, there are no closets.  True story.

Democrats are shocked and horrified every time they tax something it changes behavior.  Then the next thing they propose taxing, they don't grasp that will change behavior too
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: Why I am not fully libertarian and what's my solution
Reply #4 - Feb 19th, 2019 at 5:45pm
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Very good points, I hope you continue. Smiley
  

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What If?
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Re: Why I am not fully libertarian and what's my solution
Reply #5 - Feb 21st, 2019 at 1:26pm
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genepool wrote on Feb 19th, 2019 at 2:25am:
Confucius once found a woman that avoid paying taxes by not living in a city.


I know I'm messing with the story, but this seems like a great idea, not a bad one. You just need to take responsibilities into your own hands.

The tiger is only an issue if you don't protect yourself.

Could the same be said about people who leave USA or other OECD high tax countries in search of somewhere with lower taxes?

I've been looking at Montenegro more and more and it seems to be very fair (as fair as it can get without being 0% that is). But living there, you know the government is not going to offer the same sort of support - surely no aged pension and so on.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why I am not fully libertarian and what's my solution
Reply #6 - Feb 21st, 2019 at 5:48pm
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What If? wrote on Feb 21st, 2019 at 1:26pm:
I know I'm messing with the story, but this seems like a great idea, not a bad one. You just need to take responsibilities into your own hands.

The tiger is only an issue if you don't protect yourself.

Could the same be said about people who leave USA or other OECD high tax countries in search of somewhere with lower taxes?

I've been looking at Montenegro more and more and it seems to be very fair (as fair as it can get without being 0% that is). But living there, you know the government is not going to offer the same sort of support - surely no aged pension and so on.
Will you go for the Citizenship by Investment deal, where you give them half a million plus or minus, and they make you a citizen?
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Why I am not fully libertarian and what's my solution
Reply #7 - Feb 21st, 2019 at 10:06pm
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What If? wrote on Feb 21st, 2019 at 1:26pm:
I know I'm messing with the story, but this seems like a great idea, not a bad one. You just need to take responsibilities into your own hands.

The tiger is only an issue if you don't protect yourself.


I agree with this. If you're a minarchist but you design your society so people can opt out of it somehow (like being far away) and still be fair to those who want government roads and whatnot, that's the perfect solution.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Why I am not fully libertarian and what's my solution
Reply #8 - Feb 22nd, 2019 at 7:53am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 21st, 2019 at 10:06pm:
I agree with this. If you're a minarchist but you design your society so people can opt out of it somehow (like being far away) and still be fair to those who want government roads and whatnot, that's the perfect solution.
How about a federal government with very few powers and those relating mostly to external affairs, with a variety of state and local governments operating in a wide variety of different ways so you can choose one that suits you best while remaining a citizen of your own country?

What a great idea! Smiley
  

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What If?
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Re: Why I am not fully libertarian and what's my solution
Reply #9 - Feb 22nd, 2019 at 5:04pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 21st, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Will you go for the Citizenship by Investment deal, where you give them half a million plus or minus, and they make you a citizen?


I have enough passports, no need for another citizenship here. Cool
  
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