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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Voluntary taxes - the reality (Read 703 times)
kaz
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Voluntary taxes - the reality
Mar 6th, 2019 at 7:43am
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So for the anarchists and the troll, here is the reality of voluntary taxes.

If there were voluntary taxes, you bet your ass I'd pay them.  I'd pay generously.  Why?  You turned the police department into a business.  So you say?  The rest of you get free or cheap police.

Yeah ... but ... who are the police loyal to?  Their cash flow, like any other business.  You date my daughter, well, let's say you pay for that.  And who are the police going to serve?  You?  Yeah, they're going to be loyal to the people not paying them or paying what they can "afford."  Sure they are, sure.

Who's going to pay the taxes in our inner cities?  The poor?  Um ... no.  The criminals?  Um ... hell yeah. So when the cops come down, who are they loyal to?  The poor paying them nothing?  You live in a dream world.

Then there's the courts.  I want my property line moved.  I sue you.  Who are the courts loyal to?  You?  The skin flint who doesn't pay them?  Or me, who does? 

The irony is you're the ones who're saying to think of this as a business, and you're the ones who grasp nothing about business.  That's how business works.

Which is why I advocate taxes for only those things where there can be only one.  Land recognition, law enforcement, military, etc.  Free markets can't solve problems that affect everyone equally.  They are about ... competition.

Burnsred the troll can't solve this.  But of course he doesn't want to, he wants to troll.

But the rest of you who claim to want freedom don't solve it either.  You just go into this with the pie in the sky that government will care about you ... rather than who pays them the most.

I work at a major international bank right now.  There are two sides, consumer and wealth management.  Most of the revenue is consumer, like all banks.  Most of the profits are wealth management, like all banks.

Which side do you think they would slaughter a thousand off to satisfy one on the other side?

Freedom works most effectively when everything that is competition is free  market.  And everything that there can be only one of is government.

Yeah, it's a constant battle.  But none of you have solved how to make anarchy NOT a constant battle, you can't even solve making it not worse than classic liberalism
  

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Jeff
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Re: Voluntary taxes - the reality
Reply #1 - Mar 6th, 2019 at 8:34am
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kaz wrote on Mar 6th, 2019 at 7:43am:
So for the anarchists and the troll, here is the reality of voluntary taxes.

If there were voluntary taxes, you bet your ass I'd pay them.  I'd pay generously.  Why?  You turned the police department into a business.  So you say?  The rest of you get free or cheap police.

Yeah ... but ... who are the police loyal to?  Their cash flow, like any other business.  You date my daughter, well, let's say you pay for that.  And who are the police going to serve?  You?  Yeah, they're going to be loyal to the people not paying them or paying what they can "afford."  Sure they are, sure.

Who's going to pay the taxes in our inner cities?  The poor?  Um ... no.  The criminals?  Um ... hell yeah. So when the cops come down, who are they loyal to?  The poor paying them nothing?  You live in a dream world.

Then there's the courts.  I want my property line moved.  I sue you.  Who are the courts loyal to?  You?  The skin flint who doesn't pay them?  Or me, who does? 

The irony is you're the ones who're saying to think of this as a business, and you're the ones who grasp nothing about business.  That's how business works.

Which is why I advocate taxes for only those things where there can be only one.  Land recognition, law enforcement, military, etc.  Free markets can't solve problems that affect everyone equally.  They are about ... competition.

Burnsred the troll can't solve this.  But of course he doesn't want to, he wants to troll.

But the rest of you who claim to want freedom don't solve it either.  You just go into this with the pie in the sky that government will care about you ... rather than who pays them the most.

I work at a major international bank right now.  There are two sides, consumer and wealth management.  Most of the revenue is consumer, like all banks.  Most of the profits are wealth management, like all banks.

Which side do you think they would slaughter a thousand off to satisfy one on the other side?

Freedom works most effectively when everything that is competition is free  market.  And everything that there can be only one of is government.

Yeah, it's a constant battle.  But none of you have solved how to make anarchy NOT a constant battle, you can't even solve making it not worse than classic liberalism
I've made essentially the same argument on the forum several times. I doubt that the Sack will be influenced by you either....

Anyway, you should have stopped just before you said this:

"Most of the revenue is consumer, like all banks.  Most of the profits are wealth management, like all banks."

Profits are revenue minus expenses. If most of your revenue comes from consumer operations and the expenses for those services are high, then you can possibly say that most of your profits come from wealth management, but only if you have low costs associated with wealth management revenue.

What do you do for the major international bank, clean offices? Is that the business you keep telling us you operate, a janitorial service?
  
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kaz
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Re: Voluntary taxes - the reality
Reply #2 - Mar 6th, 2019 at 9:47am
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Jeff wrote on Mar 6th, 2019 at 8:34am:
I doubt that the Sack will be influenced by you


kaz wrote on Mar 6th, 2019 at 7:43am:
Burnsred the troll can't solve this.  But of course he doesn't want to, he wants to troll.

  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Voluntary taxes - the reality
Reply #3 - Mar 6th, 2019 at 9:53am
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kaz wrote on Mar 6th, 2019 at 7:43am:
So for the anarchists and the troll, here is the reality of voluntary taxes.

If there were voluntary taxes, you bet your ass I'd pay them.  I'd pay generously.  Why?  You turned the police department into a business.  So you say?  The rest of you get free or cheap police.

Yeah ... but ... who are the police loyal to?  Their cash flow, like any other business.  You date my daughter, well, let's say you pay for that.  And who are the police going to serve?  You?  Yeah, they're going to be loyal to the people not paying them or paying what they can "afford."  Sure they are, sure.

Who's going to pay the taxes in our inner cities?  The poor?  Um ... no.  The criminals?  Um ... hell yeah. So when the cops come down, who are they loyal to?  The poor paying them nothing?  You live in a dream world.

Then there's the courts.  I want my property line moved.  I sue you.  Who are the courts loyal to?  You?  The skin flint who doesn't pay them?  Or me, who does? 

The irony is you're the ones who're saying to think of this as a business, and you're the ones who grasp nothing about business.  That's how business works.

Which is why I advocate taxes for only those things where there can be only one.  Land recognition, law enforcement, military, etc.  Free markets can't solve problems that affect everyone equally.  They are about ... competition.

Burnsred the troll can't solve this.  But of course he doesn't want to, he wants to troll.

But the rest of you who claim to want freedom don't solve it either.  You just go into this with the pie in the sky that government will care about you ... rather than who pays them the most.

I work at a major international bank right now.  There are two sides, consumer and wealth management.  Most of the revenue is consumer, like all banks.  Most of the profits are wealth management, like all banks.

Which side do you think they would slaughter a thousand off to satisfy one on the other side?

Freedom works most effectively when everything that is competition is free  market.  And everything that there can be only one of is government.

Yeah, it's a constant battle.  But none of you have solved how to make anarchy NOT a constant battle, you can't even solve making it not worse than classic liberalism


Misplaced loyalties of police departments is not a hypothetical problem that would arise if they were paid voluntarily.  It is a problem that does occur right now and always in the past with tax-funded police because the nature of the job creates so many opportunities for corruption. 

When I was a kid, my dad was ripped off by a carnival scam that was known as "the razzle."  Sixty Minutes did a story about it a few months after my father's run in.  He went to a sheriff's deputy and tried to report it.  The deputy kept repeating, "I know of no illegal activity here."  Later my dad called him a 'rent-a-cop' and explained that he was actually off-duty and being paid by the carnival. 

Earl David Worden is experiencing a much worse version.  Because he was "guilty" of holding off-duty police accountable for acting on behalf of Shell Oil in violating his constitutional rights, he has been subjected to an arrest on a police generated charge of a sex crime that will likely never be pushed forward nor dropped without years of delay and litigation. 

Which is why my idea of a part-time, citizen militia model of policing would be best.  No more American flags desecrated with a blue line, no more "contempt of cop" arrests, no more shooting of unarmed people by roid-raging sociopaths firing taxpayer funded bullets into innocent citizens.
  

Snarky no more!
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kaz
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Re: Voluntary taxes - the reality
Reply #4 - Mar 6th, 2019 at 10:16am
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 6th, 2019 at 9:53am:
Which is why my idea of a part-time, citizen militia model of policing would be best.  No more American flags desecrated with a blue line, no more "contempt of cop" arrests, no more shooting of unarmed people by roid-raging sociopaths firing taxpayer funded bullets into innocent citizens.


So according to you, we've turned our schools into "shooting galleries" because we haven't banned guns, guns are everywhere.

Now you want to send out part time people to combat armed criminals.

Talk about wild fluctuations, LOL.

And who will decide who are real cops then?  And they won't shoot anyone or be corrupt?  With even less oversight for who is a cop, what authority they are working under and what proper procedures are than we have now?

You want time to think of a better idea, or you want to stick with this one?

  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Voluntary taxes - the reality
Reply #5 - Mar 6th, 2019 at 10:29am
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kaz wrote on Mar 6th, 2019 at 10:16am:
So according to you, we've turned our schools into "shooting galleries" because we haven't banned guns, guns are everywhere.


I've never said anything remotely like that. What I have said is that if mind scientists tried to deliberately design an environment that would push mildly neurotic kids into becoming murderous sociopaths and suicidal spree killers, what they designed would be very much like our tax-funded government schools.

Quote:
Now you want to send out part time people to combat armed criminals.

Talk about wild fluctuations, LOL.

And who will decide who are real cops then?


Who decided who the real minutemen were?  Who decides who the real neighborhood watch people are?

Quote:
  And they won't shoot anyone or be corrupt? 


There will be far less of it.

Quote:
With even less oversight for who is a cop, what authority they are working under and what proper procedures are than we have now?


I think you intended to ask something there, but I'm not sure what.


  

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The Opposition
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Re: Voluntary taxes - the reality
Reply #6 - Mar 6th, 2019 at 10:56am
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kaz wrote on Mar 6th, 2019 at 7:43am:
Yeah ... but ... who are the police loyal to?  Their cash flow, like any other business.  You date my daughter, well, let's say you pay for that.  And who are the police going to serve?  You?  Yeah, they're going to be loyal to the people not paying them or paying what they can "afford."  Sure they are, sure.

Who's going to pay the taxes in our inner cities?  The poor?  Um ... no.  The criminals?  Um ... hell yeah. So when the cops come down, who are they loyal to?  The poor paying them nothing?  You live in a dream world.

Then there's the courts.  I want my property line moved.  I sue you.  Who are the courts loyal to?  You?  The skin flint who doesn't pay them?  Or me, who does? 


All of these things happen already, they're just loyal to the cronies rather than the rich people. Have you ever lived in a bad neighbourhood? There are no police for you.

The only real difference is that with Burnsy's way, people in the middle who pay them a little can expect a little service.

All I want for my money is to be left alone while I'm not aggressing. That's a good deal for them.

Some working class people will be plucked (perhaps sued for everything they've got, lose their cars and houses) but then there's someone who will never pay taxes again. That's more protection than I have now. A lot more.

I agree with you that it can't work, but for a different reason. If you could have such a system, I think it would benefit most people.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Voluntary taxes - the reality
Reply #7 - Mar 6th, 2019 at 12:08pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 6th, 2019 at 10:56am:
All of these things happen already, they're just loyal to the cronies rather than the rich people.
There aren't any poor cronies lizard, and the problems arise because of corrupt crony governments. A "private" government is just a corrupt crony government on steroids, competing with other "private" governments for the biggest share of the plunder.

All of the problems our current governments have come from them exercising powers they were never granted. The solution is not to "privatize" government.

I can imagine that John D. Rockefeller would have loved to own his own government. Some people say J.P. Morgan did own the U.S. government... And that Boss Tweed owned the New York government. Is that the sort of thing you want to institutionalize, only with all limits on them removed?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Voluntary taxes - the reality
Reply #8 - Mar 6th, 2019 at 12:18pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 6th, 2019 at 10:29am:
I've never said anything remotely like that. What I have said is that if mind scientists tried to deliberately design an environment that would push mildly neurotic kids into becoming murderous sociopaths and suicidal spree killers, what they designed would be very much like our tax-funded government schools.
Blame it on control of the schools by the state and federal departments of education and the teachers unions.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Voluntary taxes - the reality
Reply #9 - Mar 6th, 2019 at 12:20pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 6th, 2019 at 10:29am:
There will be far less of it.
So you say. I say there will be more.
  
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