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BobK71
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A Tale of Two Socialisms
Mar 7th, 2019 at 2:16pm
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What we despise are the socialist countries of Cuba, the Soviet Union, China in the socialist days, etc.  We think that we have basically free-market, democratic systems in the West.

I invite everyone to think again.  I make the case that, while the above countries lived under economic socialism, we live under financial socialism, and that the results aren't all that different, fundamentally speaking.

Socialism depends on the ignorance of the people to survive.  Check and check.

It depends on the silencing of dissident voices.  Check and check.  Time and again, my discussions with economists suggest it's not that they don't know the system is rigged.  They don't want to know.

Central planning, whether in the economy or in money, is marketed as giving power to benevolent experts to act for the public good, with the reality of taking from the many to give to the few.  Check and check.

Periodic purges or revisions tell us the pain we're experiencing is due to the failure of past leadership and ideas.  Somehow, the system is fine but the people never seem to measure up.  Check and check.

Inequality is institutionalized.  People with centralized wealth and power tend to pass them to their offspring.  What we have, in effect, is modern feudalism.  Check and check.

One way or another, violence is the ultimate guarantor of the elites' power.  Mao: "political power comes from the barrel of the gun."  Paul Krugman: "the dollar is backed by men with guns."

Democracy is allowed as long as it only makes the system look good.  Socialist countries had real elections only at the town or village level.  The West has real elections only at the circus level.  Check and check, for filling positions of real power by 'indirect democracy.'

This is not to say there aren't major differences between 'capitalist' and socialist countries.  There are.  But not in a fundamental way, and not in the long run.

Sadly, it's true worldwide that those with power will not give it up easily, and certainly not for the good of the society at any time.  The only possible resistance, apart from self-education, is to cast a suspicious eye to every narrative promoted by the mainstream media, especially as it pertains to wars and terrorism. 

It is here that the rubber meets the road, where our literal blood is spilled for the benefit of the elites.  It's here that we must be truly vigilant.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #1 - Mar 7th, 2019 at 9:41pm
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 2:16pm:
Inequality is institutionalized.  People with centralized wealth and power tend to pass them to their offspring.  What we have, in effect, is modern feudalism.  Check and check.


You think voluntary giving from one person to another, in any form, is inequality?

The high-quality posters here, like Jeff and Kaz, are going to slam you for this, and you had to have known it.

When you say the system is rigged, well of course. It's rigged the same way a carnival game like razzle is rigged.

But just because you can't win doesn't mean there was any aggression against you.

Real socialism is aggressive in nature. It uses force.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #2 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 7:53am
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 9:41pm:
When you say the system is rigged, well of course. It's rigged the same way a carnival game like razzle is rigged.

But just because you can't win doesn't mean there was any aggression against you.

Real socialism is aggressive in nature. It uses force.
So does the crony capitalism created by governments.

Here's an instance of the "rigging":

https://reason.com/archives/2019/03/07/rent-control-cannot-escape-the-law-of-su?...
  
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kaz
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #3 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 8:57am
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 2:16pm:
What we despise are the socialist countries of Cuba, the Soviet Union, China in the socialist days, etc.  We think that we have basically free-market, democratic systems in the West.

I invite everyone to think again.  I make the case that, while the above countries lived under economic socialism, we live under financial socialism, and that the results aren't all that different, fundamentally speaking.

Socialism depends on the ignorance of the people to survive.  Check and check.

It depends on the silencing of dissident voices.  Check and check.  Time and again, my discussions with economists suggest it's not that they don't know the system is rigged.  They don't want to know.

Central planning, whether in the economy or in money, is marketed as giving power to benevolent experts to act for the public good, with the reality of taking from the many to give to the few.  Check and check.

Periodic purges or revisions tell us the pain we're experiencing is due to the failure of past leadership and ideas.  Somehow, the system is fine but the people never seem to measure up.  Check and check.

Inequality is institutionalized.  People with centralized wealth and power tend to pass them to their offspring.  What we have, in effect, is modern feudalism.  Check and check.

One way or another, violence is the ultimate guarantor of the elites' power.  Mao: "political power comes from the barrel of the gun."  Paul Krugman: "the dollar is backed by men with guns."

Democracy is allowed as long as it only makes the system look good.  Socialist countries had real elections only at the town or village level.  The West has real elections only at the circus level.  Check and check, for filling positions of real power by 'indirect democracy.'

This is not to say there aren't major differences between 'capitalist' and socialist countries.  There are.  But not in a fundamental way, and not in the long run.

Sadly, it's true worldwide that those with power will not give it up easily, and certainly not for the good of the society at any time.  The only possible resistance, apart from self-education, is to cast a suspicious eye to every narrative promoted by the mainstream media, especially as it pertains to wars and terrorism. 

It is here that the rubber meets the road, where our literal blood is spilled for the benefit of the elites.  It's here that we must be truly vigilant.


Were you actually waiving your hands when you were writing that capitalism is socialism?  All you use are 50,000 foot words.  Can you try again and give actual specifics and examples?
  

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kaz
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #4 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:00am
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 9:41pm:
You think voluntary giving from one person to another, in any form, is inequality?

The high-quality posters here, like Jeff and Kaz, are going to slam you for this, and you had to have known it.

When you say the system is rigged, well of course. It's rigged the same way a carnival game like razzle is rigged.

But just because you can't win doesn't mean there was any aggression against you.

Real socialism is aggressive in nature. It uses force.


Funny how my father in law came here not speaking a word of English with a wife and five daughters and won a rigged game.  He died a millionaire and a neighbor of Sugar Ray Leonard and Linda Carter.  Funny how most millionaires were born middle class in a rigged game.  Anyone can accomplish anything in this country if you put in the effort.  You can accomplish even more if you're intelligent.

These are just excuses for losers.  Life is hard.  Sure.  {pat on the back}.  It's up to you to make it.  Put your hat back on your head
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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The Opposition
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #5 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 10:58am
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kaz wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:00am:
Funny how my father in law came here not speaking a word of English with a wife and five daughters and won a rigged game.  He died a millionaire and a neighbor of Sugar Ray Leonard and Linda Carter.  Funny how most millionaires were born middle class in a rigged game.  Anyone can accomplish anything in this country if you put in the effort.  You can accomplish even more if you're intelligent.

These are just excuses for losers.  Life is hard.  Sure.  {pat on the back}.  It's up to you to make it.  Put your hat back on your head


This is a good point. People like Bill Gates are perfect examples.

Money inflating a little bit is hardly evidence of a rigged game. If you put the effort in, you'll win regardless. It may be a little harder to move up the class ladder now, but it's still very possible, even for the working class.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #6 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 4:37pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 10:58am:
This is a good point. People like Bill Gates are perfect examples.

Money inflating a little bit is hardly evidence of a rigged game. If you put the effort in, you'll win regardless. It may be a little harder to move up the class ladder now, but it's still very possible, even for the working class.


I was with you until the last two words.  What class isn't a working class?  I worked a lot harder than anyone else in my buisness.  So by working class, you mean business owners?
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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BobK71
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #7 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 5:10pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 7th, 2019 at 9:41pm:
You think voluntary giving from one person to another, in any form, is inequality?

The high-quality posters here, like Jeff and Kaz, are going to slam you for this, and you had to have known it.

When you say the system is rigged, well of course. It's rigged the same way a carnival game like razzle is rigged.

But just because you can't win doesn't mean there was any aggression against you.

Real socialism is aggressive in nature. It uses force.


All of the rigging is ultimately backed by the state's monopoly on violence.  I know you asked this question once, and one of these days I'll write out my full arguments.

An example for now might be using gold or silver coins as a means of exchange in the US.  You are in violation of tax laws unless you document every transaction and pay 30+% capital gains taxes.  You can't use anything you like as a form of money. The dollar is propped up by state arms.
  
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AlayneLeung
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Some socialism is necessary when resources are limited for survival.
Reply #8 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 5:30pm
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Some socialism is necessary such as a country saving steel for the making of vehicles including vehicles for defense, machinery, tools, weapons, some parts of some toys, some furniture parts, and perhaps others (like electrical wiring and plumbing?).  Currently, the USA has a steel shortage.  You most likely wouldn't need steel to make coat hangers and some parts of shopping carts because industrial hempplastic and graphene are probably so much more cost efficient.

Yes, it's true that energy and matter are interchangeable into different forms and each other (particle accelerators can achieve that), but particle accelerators use huge amounts of electricity probably and cost very much to make probably and perhaps aren't very efficient to use to do those interchangings.  And yes, it's true that there are some beings that can use magic to make nouns appear from apparently nothing and nowhere.   And yes, it's true that divine intervention could probably occur to provide materials.

While I prefer that socialism doesn't occur, that's for the most part not an option now.  So unless you want to surrender to China or Russia or North Korea, you'll want to have some socialism for defenses and economic expansions of the USA & hopefully also allies of the USA. 
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #9 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:25pm
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kaz wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 4:37pm:
I was with you until the last two words.  What class isn't a working class?  I worked a lot harder than anyone else in my buisness.  So by working class, you mean business owners?


Alright, what words should I use to mean this?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class

BobK71 wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 5:10pm:
All of the rigging is ultimately backed by the state's monopoly on violence.  I know you asked this question once, and one of these days I'll write out my full arguments.

An example for now might be using gold or silver coins as a means of exchange in the US.  You are in violation of tax laws unless you document every transaction and pay 30+% capital gains taxes.  You can't use anything you like as a form of money. The dollar is propped up by state arms.


You're going to have a tough time convincing the better posters that paying what is basically sales tax means you were aggressed against.

You have to pay taxes on transactions. That's life. The rules are the same for everyone. The game is not rigged.

I know when you lose, it's easier to look for ways it's not your fault, but the truth is that the game is exceptionally fair. The losers only have themselves to blame.

If you're fat, it means you ate too much. Your metabolism is not slow. You are not infected with adenovirus. You ate too much. If you're not rich, you're not doing something the rich guy is. The game is not rigged. You are not oppressed. He had a good idea, or better implementation, and you couldn't get customers because your idea sucked, or you didn't have one. Too bad.

People get un-rich amazingly quick if they're foolish. In fact, to stay rich, with taxes rigged against you, is probably a lot harder than climbing the ladder.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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