Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › A Tale of Two Socialisms
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A Tale of Two Socialisms (Read 3878 times)
BobK71
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 894
Joined: Jun 12th, 2015
Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #110 - Mar 27th, 2019 at 12:25pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 1:40pm:
Making one USD equal to 1/35th of an ounce of gold sets the value of the dollar and does nothing to the value of gold. If Botswana sets the value of their dollar at 1/35th of an ounce of gold too, then one Botswana dollar will equal one USD in value. If Botswana sets the value of their dollar at 1/25the of an ounce of gold, their dollar will be worth more than the U.S. dollar, and U.S. dollars won't trade at par with Botswana dollars.

Talking about a "free market" in fiat dollars is nonsense. Governments and their central banks produce fiat dollars and control their value. They also enact legal tender laws to force the use of their fiat dollars. There is nothing free market about it.


Clear eyes, my friends, clear eyes.  Over the long term, judge the true nature of a system by its fruits, not by the words attached to it, especially those uttered by central banks.

Did the dollar and other state currencies retain their values in gold or silver?  No.

Did the bankers and politicians create lots of money and debt under the standards?  Yes.

Did the gold and silver standards suppress the currency price of precious metals temporarily?  Yes, by definition, the currency price of gold/silver was fixed.

Did the elites keep installing this system over 300+ years, knowing it had 'failed' and would 'fail' everywhere?  Probably.  England's financial inflation was out of control less than ten years after the Bank of England was founded in 1690.  (It's not as if the elites have been inexperienced!)

Given this history, you have to forgive me for engaging in the wild, conspiracy-theory-nutsy speculation that, juuuuuuuuuuuuust perhaps, the elites used the metallic standards to prop up paper money and debt so they could create more of them.

Gold and silver standards did work as designed, however, when, after the bursting of a financial bubble, it was time to transfer most of the pain to the public, and away from the elites who had created the bubble in the first place, by choking the money supply, in the name of safeguarding the gold/silver standard and upholding the moral commitment to redeem paper for the same amount of gold or silver.  (Their golden goose system would have lost credibility fast if they had chosen devaluation/inflation as a response to the crisis -- i.e. they would have paid the price for the bubble.)

Absolutely brilliant.  (In reality, 'fiat money' is not worthy enough to tie the shoes of the gold standard, from the elites' point of view.  That's why, most likely, it won't last, and we're going back to something like the gold standard, except with multiple 'hard monies,' including Bitcoin.)

And true, there is no free market in money in this world.  That was my point (in response to the claim that the dollar is world reserve currency because of supply and demand.)

We should count ourselves lucky for being born in the narrow window of history when the elites lost control.  Do not lose the opportunity to profit spectacularly from it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #111 - Mar 27th, 2019 at 1:11pm
Print Post  
BobK71 wrote on Mar 27th, 2019 at 12:25pm:
Clear eyes, my friends, clear eyes.  Over the long term, judge the true nature of a system by its fruits, not by the words attached to it, especially those uttered by central banks.

Did the dollar and other state currencies retain their values in gold or silver?  No.

Did the bankers and politicians create lots of money and debt under the standards?  Yes.

Did the gold and silver standards suppress the currency price of precious metals temporarily?  Yes, by definition, the currency price of gold/silver was fixed.

Did the elites keep installing this system over 300+ years, knowing it had 'failed' and would 'fail' everywhere?  Probably.  England's financial inflation was out of control less than ten years after the Bank of England was founded in 1690.  (It's not as if the elites have been inexperienced!)

Given this history, you have to forgive me for engaging in the wild, conspiracy-theory-nutsy speculation that, juuuuuuuuuuuuust perhaps, the elites used the metallic standards to prop up paper money and debt so they could create more of them.

Gold and silver standards did work as designed, however, when, after the bursting of a financial bubble, it was time to transfer most of the pain to the public, and away from the elites who had created the bubble in the first place, by choking the money supply, in the name of safeguarding the gold/silver standard and upholding the moral commitment to redeem paper for the same amount of gold or silver.  (Their golden goose system would have lost credibility fast if they had chosen devaluation/inflation as a response to the crisis -- i.e. they would have paid the price for the bubble.)

Absolutely brilliant.  (In reality, 'fiat money' is not worthy enough to tie the shoes of the gold standard, from the elites' point of view.  That's why, most likely, it won't last, and we're going back to something like the gold standard, except with multiple 'hard monies,' including Bitcoin.)

And true, there is no free market in money in this world.  That was my point (in response to the claim that the dollar is world reserve currency because of supply and demand.)

We should count ourselves lucky for being born in the narrow window of history when the elites lost control.  Do not lose the opportunity to profit spectacularly from it.
England ruined its silver standard money by having the Bank of England issue far too many notes (and sending far too much silver to China to exchange for opium). That was not the fault of the silver but of the politicians and their cronies.

It's a probably insurmountable problem with allowing any government to have a Central Bank.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #112 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 8:24am
Print Post  
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10821
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #113 - May 14th, 2019 at 4:43pm
Print Post  
A Socialist solution to "wealth inequality".  Robert Reich explains why taxing the wealthy and redistribution is the perfect solution to remedy wealth inequality.



Here's how it works:

A 2% "wealth Tax" on the rich would generate $2.75 Trillion in revenues which could then be redistributed to lower-income people.

"Not only would a Wealth Tax raise revenue, and help bring the economy back into 'balance', but it would protect our democracy by reducing the influence of the super-rich on our political system."

I laughed so hard, i peed myself a little.   Embarrassed

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #114 - May 14th, 2019 at 5:27pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 4:43pm:
A Socialist solution to "wealth inequality".  Robert Reich explains why taxing the wealthy and redistribution is the perfect solution to remedy wealth inequality.



Here's how it works:

A 2% "wealth Tax" on the rich would generate $2.75 Trillion in revenues which could then be redistributed to lower-income people.

"Not only would a Wealth Tax raise revenue, and help bring the economy back into 'balance', but it would protect our democracy by reducing the influence of the super-rich on our political system."

I laughed so hard, i peed myself a little.   Embarrassed

2% of what?

The math says they need to tax $137.5 trillion at a rate of 2% in order to gain that $2.75 trillion in revenue. Where is Bob finding all that wealth?

Drat, I misplaced the decimal point, it's actually ten times $137.5 trillion...

Edit: That's $1.375 bazillion!
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10821
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #115 - May 14th, 2019 at 6:38pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 5:27pm:
2% of what?

all wealth in excess of $50 Million.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #116 - May 14th, 2019 at 8:18pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 6:38pm:
all wealth in excess of $50 Million.
Even including real and personal property, I don't think there's that much wealth in the world. I bet Reich just made those numbers up out of thin air. He is a Harvard trained economist who went into politics. Smiley
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #117 - May 15th, 2019 at 9:19am
Print Post  
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 7988
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #118 - May 16th, 2019 at 9:50am
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 6:38pm:
all wealth in excess of $50 Million.


Democrats couldn't care less what percent of wealth they get to tax.  Once they get the tax, they can just keep increasing it.

I can't imagine a tax more destructive to our economy though.  The wealthy will all spend their time moving their wealth offshore. 

Democrats don't care, it just opens up the opportunity for more government control and more class warfare to justify it
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobK71
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 894
Joined: Jun 12th, 2015
Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #119 - May 16th, 2019 at 2:00pm
Print Post  
The 2% wealth tax would be inflationary, whether the money is thrown out to the plebes on the street or spent via programs.  In the pockets of the rich, the same money would only drive up asset prices and not chase goods and services.

As I've said before, all signs point to inflation, at this point.  Inflation is objectively the least painful for the majority of the population, among the all-bad options on the table, after the elites have printed too many claims to wealth and propped them up with state power for too long.

Inflation is generally the least favorite among the elites' options.  To the extent they can get away with them, the more preferable ones are default/deflation, exporting the pain to other countries (with military force if necessary,) and financial repression.

That is because inflation deflates (pardon the pun) confidence in the money they issue.  And money is the center of their power.

Of course, the most preferable option of all is economic growth, but even socialists can't command miracles to come out of the labs and people to buy them.  So growth is not a real option.

So, in an unavoidable moral mess from the core nature of our system, inflation comes out as the most equitable and honest response, objectively.  'Honest' because it is basically an acknowledgement that all the claims to wealth the elites issued aren't really worth that much, and wipes the slate clean.  Also, it tends to drive savers into non-state-issued assets, which serves as a deterrence against future financial inflation.

But, inflation will be blamed on left-wing politicians and their voters.  Never will anything be blamed on the system.  Never.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14 15
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › A Tale of Two Socialisms
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy