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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A Tale of Two Socialisms (Read 2261 times)
Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #20 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:26am
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kaz wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 9:27am:
Exactly.  The poor in this country are poor because of their own poor choices.  If they worked hard, cared about their jobs and developed skills, they wouldn't be poor.

That is a very simplistic explanation that is simply not true, although it is true in some cases.
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #21 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:28am
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kaz wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 9:27am:
Two of my five businesses were retail.
Yes, and now you work for an international bank.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #22 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 1:56pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 6:56am:
This is not true.

"The problem with the working poor is they DON'T work hard enough, they aren't reliable, they don't self train."


It's true in the vast majority of cases. This is how the free market works. You work hard, you make yourself valuable. You make yourself valuable, you move up.

You're caught up in progressive victimhood. The poor are not victims. If they have something of value to provide, people will pay them well for it and they won't be poor. If people are fat, they ate too much. If people are poor, in a capitalist country, they don't work hard enough.

The minuscule few exceptions are results of government intervention or severe mental disability.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #23 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:08pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 1:56pm:
It's true in the vast majority of cases. This is how the free market works.
No it is not.

In the vast majority of cases, regulatory barriers and government interference in markets makes it difficult or impossible for people to climb out of poverty no matter how hard they work.

Genuinely free economies are constantly creating opportunities that are available to anyone and/or allowing people to create their own opportunities.

That's what you meant to say, right?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #24 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:23pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:08pm:
Genuinely free economies


How about you use a fair measuring stick instead of your anarchist fantasy? The United States provides more than enough freedom for the poor to better themselves. If they don't take advantage of it, that's on them.

Not only are they free to start businesses, they often get incentives to do so. If you're poor, you get free college, and the assistance covers more than just the classes. The poor are not only free to do anything, they are helped to do anything. Personal laziness is the only cause left that they don't succeed.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #25 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:47pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 1:56pm:
It's true in the vast majority of cases. This is how the free market works. You work hard, you make yourself valuable. You make yourself valuable, you move up.

You're caught up in progressive victimhood. The poor are not victims. If they have something of value to provide, people will pay them well for it and they won't be poor. If people are fat, they ate too much. If people are poor, in a capitalist country, they don't work hard enough.

The minuscule few exceptions are results of government intervention or severe mental disability.


Yep.  It's impossible in this country to work hard, be reliable, care about your job, train yourself and not succeed.  The poor make poor decisions.  That's why they are poor.

Now that doesn't mean it's their "fault."  I didn't ascribe blame, I just pointed out the fact.  Middle class and up parents usually teach our children to be middle class and up.  No one taught them.  To say it's not their "fault" is defendable.  To say they aren't making poor decisions and that's why they stay poor is not defendable.

When churches sponsor the poor, then want them off their support.  So they help them, but they work with them to get a job, a place and support themselves.  Government "charity" are just iron chains, they spread dependency
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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kaz
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #26 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:51pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:26am:
That is a very simplistic explanation that is simply not true, although it is true in some cases.


So you actually believe that the poor in this country work hard, are reliable, care about their jobs, get training and are still poor?  In the United States?  You actually believe that, Nancy Pelosi?  Seriously? 
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #27 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:53pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:23pm:
How about you use a fair measuring stick instead of your anarchist fantasy?
A free economy requires a rule of law and protected property rights to function. That's not "anarchy".
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #28 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:58pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:23pm:
The United States provides more than enough freedom for the poor to better themselves. If they don't take advantage of it, that's on them.

Not only are they free to start businesses...
Provided they have the proper licenses and permits from the local/state/federal governments and don't want to start a business that requires "professional qualifications" determined by the government, and provided it's a business that doesn't require much if any capital, and provided they aren't in violation of some sort of regulations by starting their business, which might require them to do an "environmental impact" study to be sure they won't harm the environment etc. etc. That narrows it down a lot.
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #29 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 3:00pm
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kaz wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 2:51pm:
So you actually believe that the poor in this country work hard, are reliable, care about their jobs, get training and are still poor?  In the United States?
Well, lot's of them opt for welfare instead, because they aren't stupid and they realize how much their opportunities have been limited by the government.
  
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