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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A Tale of Two Socialisms (Read 737 times)
kaz
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #30 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 3:17pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 3:00pm:
Well, lot's of them opt for welfare instead, because they aren't stupid and they realize how much their opportunities have been limited by the government.


I see, so it's not their decision to take welfare.  But you see it as a rational decision to be poor and not work (welfare) rather than to care and work and not be poor.  Yeah, Nancy Pelosi, let's go with that.

No one in this country who does the things I said is poor.   The poor are poor because of their own choices.  All of them
  

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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #31 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 5:23pm
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kaz wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 3:17pm:
I see, so it's not their decision to take welfare.  But you see it as a rational decision to...
...live as well on welfare as you could by working hard at a crappy job. Yes.
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #32 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 5:24pm
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kaz wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 3:17pm:
No one in this country who does the things I said is poor.
My contention in part is that the things you said are getting harder to do.
  
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kaz
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #33 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 7:30am
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Jeff wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 5:24pm:
My contention in part is that the things you said are getting harder to do.


So I said if you work hard, care about your job, are reliable and invest in yourself, you won't be poor.  So when you said only a few people are successful if they do that, not most, you meant that it's harder to do.  Even if they do those things, they will still be poor because it's harder.  That's what you meant.

And how, Jeff, is it "harder?" Why can't someone get a job and work hard exactly Jeff?  There are lots of jobs out there.  How can someone not care enough about their life to not want to be poor? 

Here's the 411, Jeff, it's called "work" for a reason."  We work ... to live.  I sure the shit don't want to be poor.  I'm willing to work to not be poor.  No one gives me a living because I'm white and male despite the stupid crap coming from the Democrats.

The poor are poor because of their own poor choices.  All of them
  

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BobK71
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #34 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:16am
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:25pm:
You're going to have a tough time convincing the better posters that paying what is basically sales tax means you were aggressed against.

You have to pay taxes on transactions. That's life. The rules are the same for everyone. The game is not rigged.


This is not a sales tax.  Gold and silver are a store of value, and should be a means of exchange if holders choose to use them as such.  The privileged status of dollars over other means of exchange and stores of value, ones that the state-bank elites don't control, via the tax code, ultimately enforced by state violence, is an example that you asked for.

If any doubt remains, I will invite anyone to read 'Confessions of An Economic Hit Man,' written by a (former) insider.  That is, if you prefer to see blood-and-gore style aggression in the form of assassination, invasion, and torture (at the hands of our friend the Shah of Iran) run by the Imperial Dollar Project (with forcing developing countries to borrow large sums in dollars to increase demand for dollars being one of the major objectives.)  Things tend to get more direct outside the borders of the West.

The Opposition wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:25pm:
I know when you lose, it's easier to look for ways it's not your fault, but the truth is that the game is exceptionally fair. The losers only have themselves to blame.

If you're fat, it means you ate too much. Your metabolism is not slow. You are not infected with adenovirus. You ate too much. If you're not rich, you're not doing something the rich guy is. The game is not rigged. You are not oppressed. He had a good idea, or better implementation, and you couldn't get customers because your idea sucked, or you didn't have one. Too bad.

People get un-rich amazingly quick if they're foolish. In fact, to stay rich, with taxes rigged against you, is probably a lot harder than climbing the ladder.


Certainly, cry-babies exist.  They should not be confused with, for example, Americans involved in manufacturing businesses who basically couldn't get a future for the past 25 years or so because American elites basically worked with China to suppress the yuan artificially and prop up the dollar with the new gold of cheap Chinese labor.

Penthouses and private jets, that their owners consider rightfully theirs, coming by way of the free market of supply and demand, because their ideas, execution and hard work were so enormously important that countless lifetime-expenses worth of profits could be made by one person, came through a slightly different framework than their owners would like to think.
  
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kaz
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #35 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:25am
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:16am:
Certainly, cry-babies exist.  They should not be confused with, for example, Americans involved in manufacturing businesses who basically couldn't get a future for the past 25 years or so because American elites basically worked with China to suppress the yuan artificially and prop up the dollar with the new gold of cheap Chinese labor.


First of all, the US has opposed China manipulating their currency because it harms US trade.  Take off the tin foil.  America has screwed a lot up.  But by blaming us for everything, even things we oppose, you show yourself to just be an America hating nut job undercutting your own credibility.

Also, manufacturing is low margin business.  The US economy is transforming to a services business which is high margin and creates jobs.  Manufacturing also isn't down other than the great recession.  It's down as a share of the economy, not down in terms of reducing net jobs.  Also, that goods are cheaper for US consumers is a huge boon to the economy.  That money doesn't disappear.  No, low margin US jobs aren't what make us an economic power, not at all.

Finally, this is the excuse that losers use to fail.  Oh, I'm in manufacturing, I can't get a job.  Well, retrain, start lower than you were and get to it.  Don't sit there expecting the jobs you had to remain.  If it were up to people like you, we'd still have blacksmiths.  Yes, the economy changes, but that's for you to solve, not to sit and draw a welfare check and ask for your old job back.

Yep, there are still whiners ...

If you want to blame Americans for harming US manufacturing, let me introduce you to the Democrat party who dramatically drive up the cost of hiring actual people, including in low margin businesses.  Democrats directly drive businesses offshore and subsidize automation.




  

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BobK71
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #36 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:35am
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kaz wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:25am:
Also, manufacturing is low margin business.  The US economy is transforming to a services business which is high margin and creates jobs.  Manufacturing also isn't down other than the great recession.  It's down as a share of the economy, not down in terms of reducing net jobs.  Also, that goods are cheaper for US consumers is a huge boon to the economy.  That money doesn't disappear.  No, low margin US jobs aren't what make us an economic power, not at all.

Finally, this is the excuse that losers use to fail.  Oh, I'm in manufacturing, I can't get a job.  Well, retrain, start lower than you were and get to it.  Don't sit there expecting the jobs you had to remain.  If it were up to people like you, we'd still have blacksmiths.  Yes, the economy changes, but that's for you to solve, not to sit and draw a welfare check and ask for your old job back.

Yep, there are still whiners ...


I could agree with all of this, but the point is that the market is far from free, from the get-go.  It doesn't matter if adjustments at the personal level is possible.  The point is that the playing field is not level, in a similarly feudal way that it was tilted in favor of the children of commisars in the socialist world.
  
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kaz
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #37 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:42am
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:35am:
I could agree with all of this, but the point is that the market is far from free, from the get-go.  It doesn't matter if adjustments at the personal level is possible.  The point is that the playing field is not level, in a similarly feudal way that it was tilted in favor of the children of commisars in the socialist world.


Yes, the market is far from free.  But there is plenty of opportunity and anyone can clean themselves up and get a job.  Then you can work hard, care about your employer, take every training opportunity and get a better job.

Life isn't fair.  Never has been.  But those are hurdles, not barriers.  I've been screwed by bosses before.  I ran five businesses during the endless great recession.  I've dealt with a lot of issues, but I got up the next morning and went back.  Now I'm about to start my dream job that combines everything I've done into a great role at a VC company.  I'll get a great salary and a share of the profits for any company I help go IPO.

There is only one reason people fail.  Themselves.  Who ever said "work" was easy?
  

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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #38 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:44am
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kaz wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:25am:
First of all, the US has opposed China manipulating their currency because it harms US trade.  Take off the tin foil.  America has screwed a lot up.  But by blaming us for everything, even things we oppose, you show yourself to just be an America hating nut job undercutting your own credibility.


Yes, the US 'opposed' the currency manipulation.  Verbally, it had to, as there was zero justification for the alternative stance.  But the difference between 'opposing' something and really opposing something is a slap on the wrist and allowing it to continue, vs. persistent pressure to obtain a change of behavior or regime, up to invasion.

Instead of having Chuck Schumer make his regular 'bad, bad, bad' finger wagging, the US could easily have pressured China successfully by trade sanctions.  The Chinese economy was almost totally dependent on US demand.  Since China was not conducting free trade from day one, by cheapening its currency, there was no question of harming free trade.
  
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kaz
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #39 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:47am
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:44am:
Yes, the US 'opposed' the currency manipulation.  Verbally, it had to, as there was zero justification for the alternative stance.  But the difference between 'opposing' something and really opposing something is a slap on the wrist and allowing it to continue, vs. persistent pressure to obtain a change of behavior or regime, up to invasion.

Instead of having Chuck Schumer make his regular 'bad, bad, bad' finger wagging, the US could easily have pressured China successfully by trade sanctions.  Since China was not conducting free trade from day one, by cheapening its currency, there was no question of harming free trade.


I'm not a socialist as you are.  Our government should not interfere in free trade.  The argument that government should decide who, when, where and how we trade doesn't resonate with me.  Trade wars are taxes on US consumers.  Let US business deal with our own issues.  We're up to it
  

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