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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A Tale of Two Socialisms (Read 2257 times)
BobK71
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #50 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 1:30pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 10:31am:
So you too agree with Trump that trade wars are a good thing.


It's a different situation today, and no, I wouldn't agree.
  
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BobK71
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Re: Some socialism is necessary when resources are limited for survival.
Reply #51 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 1:40pm
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AlayneLeung wrote on Mar 8th, 2019 at 5:30pm:
Some socialism is necessary such as a country saving steel for the making of vehicles including vehicles for defense, machinery, tools, weapons, some parts of some toys, some furniture parts, and perhaps others (like electrical wiring and plumbing?).  Currently, the USA has a steel shortage.  You most likely wouldn't need steel to make coat hangers and some parts of shopping carts because industrial hempplastic and graphene are probably so much more cost efficient.

Yes, it's true that energy and matter are interchangeable into different forms and each other (particle accelerators can achieve that), but particle accelerators use huge amounts of electricity probably and cost very much to make probably and perhaps aren't very efficient to use to do those interchangings.  And yes, it's true that there are some beings that can use magic to make nouns appear from apparently nothing and nowhere.   And yes, it's true that divine intervention could probably occur to provide materials.

While I prefer that socialism doesn't occur, that's for the most part not an option now.  So unless you want to surrender to China or Russia or North Korea, you'll want to have some socialism for defenses and economic expansions of the USA & hopefully also allies of the USA. 


Using price through the market system as a mechanism to allocate resources in demand is a more efficient and honest approach.  Most people in the West understand this.  For better or worse, China and Russia will in the long run be defeated or out-competed by the freer system of the West, because of the advantages of freedom in politics and the economy.

What I'm trying to say is, don't think the Western system is fundamentally different -- it is less heavy handed a form of statism, but is still statism at heart.
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #52 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 3:33pm
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 1:30pm:
It's a different situation today, and no, I wouldn't agree.
You say trade wars used to be good in the past?  I say they were never good and generally led to shooting wars.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Some socialism is necessary when resources are limited for survival.
Reply #53 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 3:35pm
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 1:40pm:
Using price through the market system as a mechanism to allocate resources in demand is a more efficient and honest approach.  Most people in the West understand this.  For better or worse, China and Russia will in the long run be defeated or out-competed by the freer system of the West, because of the advantages of freedom in politics and the economy.

What I'm trying to say is, don't think the Western system is fundamentally different -- it is less heavy handed a form of statism, but is still statism at heart.
But it is not a "better" form of statism that will win in the long run, it's economic liberty, which requires individual liberty to be protected and a rule of law to protect property rights.
  
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kaz
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #54 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:15pm
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 12:57pm:
Trade is only as free as the price of everything.  When one country uses state power to cheapen its currency artificially, *all* prices are set by the state, and there is no free trade.  To use trade sanctions as pressure to force that government to stop buying dollars with newly printed yuan would be an attempt to return to free trade.


I don't know what "trade is only as free as the price of everything" means. But I agree with you that China should not interfere in free trade.  What I don't get is your contention that China doing that justifies our own government removing with government guns our rights in addition to China doing it.  And government is doubling down on screwing US consumers.  The ideal is of course open trade  But one way free trade is still better than no way free trade.

I also don't see where you get the idea that government will act in our interest when we give it the power to restrict our liberty.  When has that ever happened before?  The US government is a tyrannical power.  I don't trust them as far as I can throw my front porch
  

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kaz
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #55 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:24pm
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 1:19pm:
Believe it or not, I used to be a profound admirer of America.  Whatever positive character of America you could think of, I could probably glorify it even better.  I swallowed the college-level mainstream education (specifically the Adams Smith, George Orwell, and monetary-policy-as-social-good parts) line, sink and hook.


Um ... Adam Smith was a free marketer and George Orwell was a Communist.  I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Universities are overwhelmingly leftist socialists

BobK71 wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 1:19pm:
After I started looking into finance and money (that is, really looking,) however, I realized the whole thing was fraudulent (though intelligently tacking as close to real free-market-and-democracy as possible.)


Well, you're in luck.  I was an MBA in finance at a top business school, worked on Wall Street and spent the majority of my career in finance.  Still do.  I also despise the US government.  I just think it's more powerful to criticize them for what they actually do.  Criticizing them for everything just sounds like moonbat.

Also, you're right about the fraudulent.  The Fed is the largest criminal organization in the history of man.  They have stolen tens of trillions from the American people

BobK71 wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 1:19pm:
For a long time, I either couldn't or didn't want to understand that military power was an equal partner in the imperial game to financial engineering, as no country on this earth would believe in American paper without the ultimate threat of military 'intervention.'


I have no idea what that means.  US wars are politically motivated.  They don't make sense from a financial perspective

Well, you're in luck.  I was an MBA in finance at a top business school, worked on Wall Street and spent the majority of my career in ginance.  Still do.  I also despise the US government.  I just think it's more powerful to criticize them for what they actually do.  Criticizing them for everything just sounds like moonbat.

Also, you're right about the fraudulent.  The Fed is the largest criminal organization in the history of man.  They have stolen tens of trillions from the American people

BobK71 wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 1:19pm:
America is by no means unique.  It is (tragically) only the last in a string of global empires that rose, issued too much debt taxes, and fell without any hope of restoration.  (With Spain, the Netherlands, and Britain going before it, in that order.)


One change.  Debt isn't wrong, but it's a byproduct.  The issue is taxes.  And by taxes, I mean the financial implication of all government mandates that drive up costs, not just financial confiscation of money.  They are all taxes.

When taxes are low, fraud, evasion and avoidance are low.  The higher taxes get, the more people work to not pay them and the more government works to pay them.  Eventually both sides are obsessed with taxes rather than productivity, which grows the economy.

Spain was a great example of that.  Taxes are why the armada sank, not the English.  The boats were in extreme disrepair as the people and government's attentions were elsewhere.  Entire new Spanish ports were created for ships to come in and hide their cargo from tax collectors.  That wasn't growing the Spanish economy

  

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kaz
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Re: Some socialism is necessary when resources are limited for survival.
Reply #56 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:29pm
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 1:40pm:
Using price through the market system as a mechanism to allocate resources in demand is a more efficient and honest approach.  Most people in the West understand this.  For better or worse, China and Russia will in the long run be defeated or out-competed by the freer system of the West, because of the advantages of freedom in politics and the economy.

What I'm trying to say is, don't think the Western system is fundamentally different -- it is less heavy handed a form of statism, but is still statism at heart.


You need to look up the definition of statism.  Burnsred has that ignorance as well.  Burnsred is our resident site troll if you haven't met.  He goes by Little Big Man now.  He claimed that he didn't get what his user name meant when it was burnsred.  He also thinks statism means the existence of a State.  That isn't what it means.

It's ironic too that you're arguing against the State while here you're advocating the State should intervene with force against US companies' right to free trade
« Last Edit: Mar 12th, 2019 at 9:28am by kaz »  

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The Opposition
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #57 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 10:30pm
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:16am:
This is not a sales tax.


So? Again, you make a transaction, you get taxed. Not rigged. Everyone plays by the same rules. Everyone has the same opportunity to change the rules if they don't like them. Do you really think your dollars aren't as green as the next lobbyist's? If you don't have as many dollars, work harder, like the capitalists paying the lobbyists did.

BobK71 wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:16am:
Certainly, cry-babies exist.  They should not be confused with, for example, Americans involved in manufacturing businesses who basically couldn't get a future for the past 25 years or so because American elites basically worked with China to suppress the yuan artificially and prop up the dollar with the new gold of cheap Chinese labor.


You're right. Milksops who refuse to work for what they're worth, who are fed government subsidies at every turn, definitely should not be compared to infants. It insults the infants.

Americans can't compete with China because Chinese workers actually work. It has nothing to do with the Yuan or the dollar. No matter how much Americans are favoured, they still can't compete, because they won't work.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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BobK71
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #58 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 8:41am
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Jeff wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 3:33pm:
You say trade wars used to be good in the past?  I say they were never good and generally led to shooting wars.


It would not have been starting a trade war as we're doing today.  It would have been responding to a manipulation of trade to try to remove the manipulation and get back to normal trade.
  
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kaz
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #59 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 9:27am
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 8:41am:
It would not have been starting a trade war as we're doing today.  It would have been responding to a manipulation of trade to try to remove the manipulation and get back to normal trade.


That's double talk.  Of course you'd have been starting a trade war.  Trade isn't one of those things where China punched the US government and we're punching back.  A trade war is more where one gang is terrorizing a neighborhood, and to get even with them, another gang starts terrorizing the same neighborhood.

What's funny is you want the US government to stay out of Venezuela because you hate everything about the United States, then you turn around and want the US government to punish it's own people to somehow get back at China.

Consistency anyone?
  

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