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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #60 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 12:13pm
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kaz wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:24pm:
One change.  Debt isn't wrong, but it's a byproduct.  The issue is taxes.
The real issue is spending. Secondary is the government's unwillingness to collect enough taxes to cover its spending, which leads to borrowing and money printing.
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #61 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 12:18pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 10:30pm:
Americans can't compete with China because Chinese workers actually work. It has nothing to do with the Yuan or the dollar. No matter how much Americans are favoured, they still can't compete, because they won't work.
Americans can compete with Chinese workers or anybody else, but the more our governments handicap American workers with taxes and regulations and mandates, the more difficult is is for us to compete with anybody.
  
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #62 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 12:19pm
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 8:41am:
It would not have been starting a trade war as we're doing today.  It would have been responding to a manipulation of trade to try to remove the manipulation and get back to normal trade.
Has that ever worked?

As kaz said, in the face of trade barriers, the best thing to do is allow free trade. One way free trade is better than no-way free trade.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #63 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 8:47pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 12:19pm:
As kaz said, in the face of trade barriers, the best thing to do is allow free trade. One way free trade is better than no-way free trade.


Exactly. One aggression does not justify another, unrelated aggression.

It's not even like one gang terrorising a neighbourhood, and then another gang doing the same.

It's like the second gang going out and terrorising a second neighbourhood.

Put plainly, people like Bob can't comprehend the NAP.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #64 - Mar 13th, 2019 at 6:54am
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 8:47pm:
Exactly. One aggression does not justify another, unrelated aggression.

It's not even like one gang terrorising a neighbourhood, and then another gang doing the same.

It's like the second gang going out and terrorising a second neighbourhood.

Put plainly, people like Bob can't comprehend the NAP.
I don't think the NAP has anything to do with import tariffs and trade barriers in the sense that Bob is using. Retaliatory tariffs and trade barriers are probably considered "self defense" in principle even though they amount to shooting oneself in the foot in practical terms.
  
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BobK71
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #65 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 3:33pm
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I'm going to do a generic reply to all of your issues.  Please be sure to let me know if I missed anything.

I believe it's problematic to argue trade policy (if that's even an issue here, if reality be revealed), etc. without having an agreed understanding of history.  So I'll first lay out my own version of history, and welcome any discussion of that (disgreements, questions, etc.)

America's basic policy towards the developing world over the last 100 years has been to artificially inflate demand for dollars by: 1. forcing poor countries to borrow dollars we knew they could never repay, and 2. forcing/allowing productive countries (whether in oil or manufacturing) to suppress their currencies with policy and thus sell their wares cheaply in dollars, and park their reserves in dollar-based assets.  Please read 'Confessions of An Economic Hit Man' for an insider account of how coups, assissinations and invasions (the latter only when necessary) were methodically used to support this policy.  (I eventually realized that the anti-CIA and anti-odious-debt rants from the left have a point, even though I'm by no means convinced of their agenda.)

But of course, for at least some (one?) of you, there's no aggression in this system!

As for trade with China since the early 90s, somehow, magically, the US elites emerged as the major short-to-medium term beneficiaries.  The 90s 'goldilocks' US economy had low inflation, low fiscal deficits, and high growth at the same time.  When China amassed dollar reserves by buying dollars to suppress the yuan and selling cheap goods to the world, it also lent the reserves back to the US, so American governments and citizens were able to enjoy low borrowing costs.

This couldn't last.  Mainstream economists have admitted that the resulting 'global imbalances' and 'savings glut' were among the basic driving forces of the 2008 financial crisis (and I would argue the same for the 2000 dot com crash.)  The combination of dispossessed manufacturing workers, unstable jobs in services, and the 'lost decade' just past have produced a Trump victory and a Europe in political upheaval.
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #66 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 4:16pm
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 15th, 2019 at 3:33pm:
1. ...forcing poor countries to borrow dollars...
How was that done Bob?
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #67 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 4:17pm
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 15th, 2019 at 3:33pm:
But of course, for at least some (one?) of you, there's no aggression in this system!

I thought you were going to talk abut trade policy from a historic standpoint?
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #68 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 4:20pm
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BobK71 wrote on Mar 15th, 2019 at 3:33pm:
As for trade with China since the early 90s,...
U.S. trade policy started in 1990? That's historical all right Bob, from the perspective of a child. People my age call that current events. Grin
  
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Re: A Tale of Two Socialisms
Reply #69 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 11:17am
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