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Little Big Man
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Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Mar 9th, 2019 at 7:51pm
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. . . later taken from them be returned forthwith, with no debate and no hesitation?

This is addressed to any libertarian who believes in property rights.

  

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Jeff
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #1 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 7:16am
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 9th, 2019 at 7:51pm:
. . . later taken from them be returned forthwith, with no debate and no hesitation?

This is addressed to any libertarian who believes in property rights.

We've been through this repeatedly on the forum.

Find out which tribe has the earliest valid claim to the land... This will be difficult, since the lands in question changed hands repeatedly over the millennia as stronger tribes forced out weaker tribes.

The problem is made more difficult because most of the tribes never claimed to own the land anyway and didn't keep records because none of them had written languages.

The best solution is to force all the people in America who are not current members of tribes to leave America and go back to wherever their ancestors came from, then let the native tribes fight it out among themselves.

Certainly some land ceded to the Cherokees by treaty will be claimed by the Sioux or some other tribe as actually belonging to them...
  
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kaz
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #2 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 9:50am
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 9th, 2019 at 7:51pm:
. . . later taken from them be returned forthwith, with no debate and no hesitation?

This is addressed to any libertarian who believes in property rights.



There is nothing libertarian about doing things without debate or hesitation.  False premise
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #3 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:01am
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kaz wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 9:50am:
There is nothing libertarian about doing things without debate or hesitation.  False premise


Really?  So you see a person being beaten and robbed, you're going to hesitate to put a stop to it so there can be time for debate?


  

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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #4 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:08am
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:01am:
Really?  So you see a person being beaten and robbed, you're going to hesitate to put a stop to it so there can be time for debate?




That's a clown post, bro.

#justhowtrollsroll
  

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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #5 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:31am
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:01am:
Really?  So you see a person being beaten and robbed, you're going to hesitate to put a stop to it so there can be time for debate?


There is time to debate the issue of stolen tribal lands. Let's start with the lands the Cherokee stole from the Creeks...
  
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #6 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:43am
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Little Big Man wrote yesterday at 7:51pm:
Quote:
. . . later taken from them be returned forthwith, with no debate and no hesitation?

This is addressed to any libertarian who believes in property rights.

We've been through this repeatedly on the forum.

Find out which tribe has the earliest valid claim to the land... This will be difficult, since the lands in question changed hands repeatedly over the millennia as stronger tribes forced out weaker tribes.

The problem is made more difficult because most of the tribes never claimed to own the land anyway and didn't keep records because none of them had written languages.

The best solution is to force all the people in America who are not current members of tribes to leave America and go back to wherever their ancestors came from, then let the native tribes fight it out among themselves.

Certainly some land ceded to the Cherokees by treaty will be claimed by the Sioux or some other tribe as actually belonging to them...


Jeff wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:31am:
There is time to debate the issue of stolen tribal lands. Let's start with the lands the Cherokee stole from the Creeks...


Let's start with lands that were specifically ceded to specific tribes by our specific federal government where there are very clear and well-preserved written records of the agreements. 

From Wiki:

U.S.–Native American treaties

From 1778 to 1871, the United States government entered into more than 500 treaties with the Native American tribes; all of these treaties have since been violated in some way or outright broken by the US government,[20][21][22][23] while at least one treaty was violated or broken by Native American tribes.[24] However, violations by one party do not nullify the treaties under US law; the treaties still have legal effect today, and Native Americans and First Nations peoples are still fighting for their treaty rights in federal courts and at the United Nations.[21][25]


When should we start giving them their land back and should the current fictitious owners be compensated for the land they bought in more-or-less good faith?
  

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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #7 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:56am
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:43am:
Let's start with lands that were specifically ceded to specific tribes by our specific federal government where there are very clear and well-preserved written records of the agreements. 

From Wiki:

U.S.–Native American treaties

From 1778 to 1871, the United States government entered into more than 500 treaties with the Native American tribes; all of these treaties have since been violated in some way or outright broken by the US government,[20][21][22][23] while at least one treaty was violated or broken by Native American tribes.[24] However, violations by one party do not nullify the treaties under US law; the treaties still have legal effect today, and Native Americans and First Nations peoples are still fighting for their treaty rights in federal courts and at the United Nations.[21][25]


When should we start giving them their land back and should the current fictitious owners be compensated for the land they bought in more-or-less good faith?
The way I understand it is settlers moved onto tribal lands that had been ceded to various tribes and started farms and ranches and towns, then asked for the army to be sent to protect them. You could say the settlers took the land by conquest, which is the way the tribes had always done it when dealing with each other...

But the real problem arises, I think, from the granting of the lands to the various tribes in the first place. Is it a valid grant if the U.S. government ceded land then currently or traditionally used by the Sioux to the Creeks? Is the original grant valid if it ceded land once occupied by the Creeks to the Cherokees?

I say no. None of the original grants of land to the various tribes is valid, so talking about it being stolen later is meaningless.

If you are going to remove current owners who have clear title to the land, you must return their land to the actual original owners, even if they never claimed to own it to begin with and nobody knows who they are/were and they all claim to have originally owned the land by right of conquest anyway.
  
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #8 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 12:25pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:43am:
Little Big Man wrote yesterday at 7:51pm:


Let's start with lands that were specifically ceded to specific tribes by our specific federal government where there are very clear and well-preserved written records of the agreements. 

From Wiki:

U.S.–Native American treaties

From 1778 to 1871, the United States government entered into more than 500 treaties with the Native American tribes; all of these treaties have since been violated in some way or outright broken by the US government,[20][21][22][23] while at least one treaty was violated or broken by Native American tribes.[24] However, violations by one party do not nullify the treaties under US law; the treaties still have legal effect today, and Native Americans and First Nations peoples are still fighting for their treaty rights in federal courts and at the United Nations.[21][25]


When should we start giving them their land back and should the current fictitious owners be compensated for the land they bought in more-or-less good faith?


Well done (pat on the head).  This is the rational question.  And actually, let's not start there, let's start and end there because it is the rational question.

Do they get the land back?  Probably not.  I realize you were a teacher and therefore know little about how our country operates, but I'll give you a quick answer based on how our civil law works in this country.  Sad you don't know that, but whatever.  There are two parts to the answer.

1)  They don't get the land back.  Our civil courts work on monetary damages in almost all cases.  Innocent people are living on the land, probably many of them.  To take the land from them or force them off is untenable.  But we do owe the Indians the monetary value of the land when it was taken, and that should be adjusted for inflation

2)  The tricky part is who is paid the damages.  There needs to be a clear lineage from the time of the theft to their heirs of today.  But if we can do that, yes, we owe them the money
  

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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #9 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 1:41pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 10th, 2015 at 7:51am:
Opposition, if you buy a stolen car and spend your money and labor repairing it and repainting it it's still not your car. When the car is returned to it's actual owner, the police will be looking at you to determine if you are aiding and abetting car thieves.
Try to make sure you aren't buying stolen property.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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