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Jeff
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #10 - Mar 10th, 2019 at 1:49pm
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kaz wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 12:25pm:
But we do owe the Indians the monetary value of the land when it was taken, and that should be adjusted for inflation

2)  The tricky part is who is paid the damages. 
Essentially the U.S. government of the time stole the land (although the original theft of much of the land was accomplished by land grants from the English King), even if only by legitimizing the theft by settlers who moved in and weren't forced to leave, instead they were granted title.

Is it justice to make U.S. taxpayers today, who had nothing to do with the theft then, pay damages to living people today whose ancestors were robbed? Or, is it justice to make people living on the land today, who may not be related to anyone involved in the original theft pay damages to people who never owned the land to begin with, but whose ancestors received it as a gift after it was stolen from some other tribe?

Should titled owners today pay the tribe that was given the land, or the tribe that was displaced to take the land?

To me, it is essential that a clear chain of ownership of the original land, prior to it's acquisition by land grant from the King or by right of conquest, be established. That can't be done, and because it can't be done, there is no way to compensate the right people. I see it as an injustice to penalize current U.S. taxpayers or current titled property owners in order to compensate the wrong people, i.e. people who didn't actually have any legitimate claim to the land before it became tribal land by treaty.

Don't take my land or money to compensate the Cherokee tribe when they stole the land in question from the Sioux.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #11 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 12:06pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 10:56am:
The way I understand it is settlers moved onto tribal lands that had been ceded to various tribes and started farms and ranches and towns, then asked for the army to be sent to protect them. You could say the settlers took the land by conquest, which is the way the tribes had always done it when dealing with each other...

But the real problem arises, I think, from the granting of the lands to the various tribes in the first place. Is it a valid grant if the U.S. government ceded land then currently or traditionally used by the Sioux to the Creeks? Is the original grant valid if it ceded land once occupied by the Creeks to the Cherokees?

I say no. None of the original grants of land to the various tribes is valid, so talking about it being stolen later is meaningless.

If you are going to remove current owners who have clear title to the land, you must return their land to the actual original owners, even if they never claimed to own it to begin with and nobody knows who they are/were and they all claim to have originally owned the land by right of conquest anyway.


Land ownership is a government construct.  It can only exist through conquering.   "Occupied" is the exact correct word you used.  The Creeks, Cherokee, etc. never had the concept of private property or even government controlled territory.  They just chased each other off of areas that they then occupied until someone chased them off.

Only under government can any person or group be said to own land or have the right to control land.  The Cherokee, etc. had tribal leadership, not government by any valid definition of word.

But, if you believe that the U.S. government is a valid one, then when it recognizes a tribal leadership as a government and then gives territory to that native tribe, that tribe does become the rightful owner.  Otherwise, your constitution means zero.

So, when should they get it back?  Or do you agree with Kas that they should be compensated in cash?  Don't worry about where to get that cash, the IRS is staffing up for action!




  

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Jeff
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #12 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 3:19pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 12:06pm:
Land ownership is a government construct.
Nonsense. Registering titles to land is something people want the government to do because it protects their property rights.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #13 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 3:23pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 12:06pm:
"Occupied" is the exact correct word you used.  The Creeks, Cherokee, etc. never had the concept of private property or even government controlled territory.  They just chased each other off of areas that they then occupied until someone chased them off.
Right, and the Europeans/Americans chased them off and occupied the land and titled the ownership of the occupied land to people who met certain conditions of occupancy and use, recognizing their legal ownership of the land.

Some of the tribes and some of their individual members accepted this system of titled land ownership and bought land and registered the titles in their names, establishing their legal ownership.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #14 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 3:30pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 12:06pm:
But, if you believe that the U.S. government is a valid one, then when it recognizes a tribal leadership as a government and then gives territory to that native tribe, that tribe does become the rightful owner.  Otherwise, your constitution means zero.

So, when should they get it back?
When they buy it.

The mistake was in recognizing tribes as separate  sovereign nations within the U.S. without requiring them to create republican forms of government and apply for statehood.

Our government has made lots of mistakes and done lots of unconstitutional things over the years, but they won't be rectified by abrogating the property rights of current legal landowners.

What the tribes lost, they lost by conquest. They should understand that, and they should be "compensated" for the loss in exactly the way they compensated other tribes when they took their land by conquest, that is, not at all.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #15 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 4:10pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 3:30pm:
When they buy it.

The mistake was in recognizing tribes as separate  sovereign nations within the U.S. without requiring them to create republican forms of government and apply for statehood.

Our government has made lots of mistakes and done lots of unconstitutional things over the years, but they won't be rectified by abrogating the property rights of current legal landowners.


Once can have property rights to property stolen from others?

Quote:
What the tribes lost, they lost by conquest. They should understand that, and they should be "compensated" for the loss in exactly the way they compensated other tribes when they took their land by conquest, that is, not at all.


They had not been conquered yet.  They were still fighting when the government offered them the treaty. 


So the mistake the tribes made was to rely on the U.S. government to keep its word?


  

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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #16 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:02pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 4:10pm:
So the mistake the tribes made was to rely on the U.S. government to keep its word?




Well, not a mistake so much in that they really had no choice other than to keep fighting and dying until there weren't enough left to resist, but the US government has a long history of not keeping it's word.  Still do.

If you like your doctor ...
  

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kaz
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #17 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:04pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 12:06pm:
Land ownership is a government construct.  It can only exist through conquering.   "Occupied" is the exact correct word you used.  The Creeks, Cherokee, etc. never had the concept of private property or even government controlled territory.  They just chased each other off of areas that they then occupied until someone chased them off.

Only under government can any person or group be said to own land or have the right to control land.  The Cherokee, etc. had tribal leadership, not government by any valid definition of word.

But, if you believe that the U.S. government is a valid one, then when it recognizes a tribal leadership as a government and then gives territory to that native tribe, that tribe does become the rightful owner.  Otherwise, your constitution means zero.

So, when should they get it back?  Or do you agree with Kas that they should be compensated in cash?  Don't worry about where to get that cash, the IRS is staffing up for action!






Today's discussion, kids, is on trolling 101.  Here's what you do, you take a valid point and turn it around.

Valid point:  Recognition of property rights is a reason we created government

Troll point:  Government creates the need for property rights

Thank you Mr. Troll, burnsred for demonstrating that troll strategy
  

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kaz
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #18 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:10pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 10th, 2019 at 1:41pm:
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Opposition, if you buy a stolen car and spend your money and labor repairing it and repainting it it's still not your car. When the car is returned to it's actual owner, the police will be looking at you to determine if you are aiding and abetting car thieves.
Try to make sure you aren't buying stolen property.



Great example of why civil court usually deals only in money.

What is completely different about this example, Opposition, is that the person who had the car stolen from them is still alive.  And it's a car.  If the car is in good shape, you can simply return the car and the person it was stolen from is made whole.  No fuss, no muss.

However, with the land, that was hundreds of years ago.  The people of today would have benefited from the US government not reneging on its treaty, but there is no way like the car to make them whole.  And you're punishing people of today based on actions of their great, great ... grandparents.  That is entirely different than the car analogy.

Note it's also entirely different than slavery reparations.  The Indians of today would have received the land.  However, the great, great, great grandchildren were not slaves.  There's nothing that would have lasted like land that affects their lives today.

It sucks that taxpayers of today would have to foot the bill, but that's why I made the troll burnsred state explicitly he's talking about US Federal government agreements.  There's no way to be perfect in life.  The current shareholders of a company have to pay if the company is sued, not the shareholders as of the date of the transgression.  It's just life
  

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Jeff
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #19 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:33pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 4:10pm:
Once can have property rights to property stolen from others?
For the most part, the tribes considered land to be a commons, available for use by anyone strong enough to take it and hold it.

The Europeans did, they took if and held it.

That was playing by the tribe's own rules... Now, the ancestors of those tribes who claimed that land couldn't be owned are claiming that their forefathers were wrong, they actually did own land.

That's called revisionist history. Some current native Americans are revising reality to benefit themselves.
  
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