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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . . (Read 956 times)
Jeff
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #20 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:35pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 4:10pm:
They had not been conquered yet.  They were still fighting when the government offered them the treaty. 
They were treaties of surrender, and they were subsequently treated like conquered foes.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #21 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:39pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 4:10pm:
So the mistake the tribes made was to rely on the U.S. government to keep its word?
The mistake they made was earlier than that.

They were mistaken to imagine that engaging in barbarous warfare and acts of terrorism against the Europeans would drive them back into the sea.

The result of that was to drive the Europeans into barbarity against the Indians, hoping to wipe them out entirely.
  
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #22 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:43pm
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kaz wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:02pm:
Well, not a mistake so much in that they really had no choice other than to keep fighting and dying until there weren't enough left to resist...
But they did have another choice, to try to get along and act as if they were civilized. Many of them did just that.

The one's that fought and kept fighting were warriors willing to sacrifice the entire tribe for their honor. Sort of like R.E. Lee.
  
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #23 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:19pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:39pm:
The mistake they made was earlier than that.

They were mistaken to imagine that engaging in barbarous warfare and acts of terrorism against the Europeans would drive them back into the sea.

The result of that was to drive the Europeans into barbarity against the Indians, hoping to wipe them out entirely.


So, just as you blame the south for Sherman's march to the sea, you blame the Cherokee for the Trail of Tears?

  

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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #24 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:24pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 5:35pm:
They were treaties of surrender, and they were subsequently treated like conquered foes.


I assure you that the word, "surrender" did not appear on any of those treaties.  They were treaties between the United States and an entity that they United States recognized as being worthy of a treaty.  The tribes gave up their right do defend their territory on the promise that a limited amount of that territory would be theirs "as long as grass grows and water runs."  So you don't play the out-of-context card, here are President Jackson's exact words:

Say to my reel Choctaw children, and my Chickasaw children to listen-my white children of Mississippi have extended their law over their country. .. . Where they now are, say to them, their father cannot prevent them from being subject to the laws of the state of Mississippi. . .. The general government will be obliged to sustain the States in the exercise of their right. Say to the chiefs and warriors that I am their friend, that I wish to act as their friend but they must, by removing from the limits of the States of Mississippi and Alabama and by being settled on the lands I offer them, put it in my power to be such-There, beyond the limits of any State, in possession of land of their own, which they shall possess as long as Grass grows or water runs. I am and will protect them and be their friend and father.

So, they gave up the right to live on the lands on which they were born in exchange for those stirring words.  Well, for the words and the land, but the words were all they ended up with.

I guess you're just debating to debate, Jeff.  No way a rational American can feel anything but shame over our treatment of the Native people's.


  

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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #25 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 9:23am
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:24pm:
No way a rational American can feel anything but shame over our treatment of the Native people's.




agreed
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #26 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 12:01pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:19pm:
So, just as you blame the south for Sherman's march to the sea, you blame the Cherokee for the Trail of Tears?

I blame the Cherokee for pushing weaker tribes off the land when they got to the end of "Trail of Tears" because, as usual, they wanted the best available land and used force to get it.

What I blamed R.E. Lee for was sacrificing almost all the rest of his army after it was obvious that they had lost, just like I blame the Indian warriors for sacrificing their tribes after it was obvious they had lost.
« Last Edit: Mar 12th, 2019 at 6:24pm by Jeff »  
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #27 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 12:01pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:24pm:
I assure you that the word, "surrender" did not appear on any of those treaties.
It wasn't necessary.
  
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #28 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 12:07pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:24pm:
So, they gave up the right to live on the lands on which they were born in exchange for those stirring words.  Well, for the words and the land, but the words were all they ended up with.

I guess you're just debating to debate, Jeff.  No way a rational American can feel anything but shame over our treatment of the Native people's.
They may or may not have been born on the lands they gave up... They might have been born somewhere else and moved onto some other tribes land when they defeated them in war.

I feel just as much shame for the way the native peoples treated other tribes and the white settlers. Their idea of war was to engage in acts of barbarism and terrorism, and the rational response of the settlers was to want to wipe them out.

Neither side was blameless, but the tribes lost according to their own rules and were treated poorly because of the way they waged war.
  
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Re: Should All Tribal Lands, Ceded to Native Americans by Treaty, but . .
Reply #29 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 6:46pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2019 at 12:07pm:
They may or may not have been born on the lands they gave up... They might have been born somewhere else and moved onto some other tribes land when they defeated them in war.

I feel just as much shame for the way the native peoples treated other tribes and the white settlers. Their idea of war was to engage in acts of barbarism and terrorism, and the rational response of the settlers was to want to wipe them out.

Neither side was blameless, but the tribes lost according to their own rules and were treated poorly because of the way they waged war.
[/quote]

So you support slavery as a means to an end, you blame native Americans for their own genocide, you blame the parents of immigrant children who are molested in federal custody and you blame New Dealers for the power of the federal government as expressed by Washington during the Whiskey Rebellion, and Lincoln during the invasion of the Confederacy. 

I take back every snarky comment I've made about you being inconsistent.

  

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