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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Supreme Court: "Cruel and Unusual Sounds Fine to Us!" (Read 637 times)
Little Big Man
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Re: Supreme Court: "Cruel and Unusual Sounds Fine to Us!"
Reply #60 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 11:42am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 11:21am:
They're not my ideas; they're the objectively correct ones.

I unfortunately realise, however, that a system where criminals cannot lose and can only win (Expected Value of crime = positive) will breed more criminals.

You can lose your lawnmower. But you can't kill the criminal because his life is more valuable than your lawnmower. The criminal can't lose anything if he's poor. The time will come for punishment, he'll turn out his pockets, and that will be the end of it.

https://mises.org/library/right-self-defense

If life > gum, then surely life > lawnmower. (You can prove this by just letting the lad in question steal enough gum that it equals to the price of a lawnmower.)

Remember, this is part of an article about self-defence, not punishment. You must let the child walk away with your property if your only alternative is to shoot him.

Because he knows this, he will always just run. He will struggle so that he will be seriously harmed or even die if you grab him.

Respecting the NAP absolutely will lead to its practical destruction.


Actually, when I see a person walking away with my lawnmower, more is at stake than just the lawnmower vs. his life.  My right to own property is at stake and that is much more important to me than either the lawnmower or the life of a thief.

The reason we don’t think like that is that we have had our esteem for our property rights bred out of us by multiple generations of taxes.  So the idea that we can shoot someone who comes to take our stuff is an anathema while to our great-great grandparents it would have been the only logical course of action.


« Last Edit: Apr 11th, 2019 at 4:57pm by Little Big Man »  

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The Opposition
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Re: Supreme Court: "Cruel and Unusual Sounds Fine to Us!"
Reply #61 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 10:09pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 11:42am:
Actually, when I see a person walking away with my lawnmower, more is at stake than just the lawnmower vs. his life.  My right to own property is at stake and that is much more important to me than either the lawnmower or the life of a thief.


A true libertarian will tell you that of course you have the right to own the lawnmower; it's just being violated.

Little Big Man wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 11:42am:
The reason we don’t think like that is that we have had our esteem for our property rights bred out of us by multiple generations of taxes.  So the idea that we can shoot someone who comes to take our stuff is an anathema while to our great-great grandparents it would have been the only logical course of action.


I'm the least libertarian person on the forum and I definitely think like that. I may not frame the question in terms of property rights so I can subdivide, redefine, and conquer, but I recognise the loss of sustainability inherent in the view that you can never kill the criminal to protect your stuff.

I ultimately agree with Rothbard, though. His way is the most libertarian, and therefore correct. What matters is respecting rights. We don't live in a perfect world where you can wave a magic wand and get back your lawnmower without the slightest scratch left on the criminal. Ultimately, it's a choice: Protect your rights, or violate his.

People slam me for saying the NAP reduces to pacifism, but that Rothbard quote is where I get that idea.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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kaz
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Re: Supreme Court: "Cruel and Unusual Sounds Fine to Us!"
Reply #62 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:55am
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 11:42am:
Actually, when I see a person walking away with my lawnmower, more is at stake than just the lawnmower vs. his life.  My right to own property is at stake and that is much more important to me than either the lawnmower or the life of a thief.

The reason we don’t think like that is that we have had our esteem for our property rights bred out of us by multiple generations of taxes.  So the idea that we can shoot someone who comes to take our stuff is an anathema while to our great-great grandparents it would have been the only logical course of action.




Your example would be more accurate if you come in the garage and someone is robbing you of your lawn mower.  That's a less ambiguous situation.

By the time they are walking down the street with it, you have other options and the situation is less clear.  Libertarian views would differ at that point on killing them.  Maybe they have the same brand of lawnmower you do and yours is still in your garage ...  A lot of things can go wrong at that point.  If they are in your garage taking your lawnmower, it's still not 100% unambiguous, but it's a lot more so.  Maybe still they are the new neighbor and your wife lent it to them. 

Your view that libertarians are all Yosemite Sam is your problem, not ours.  And again on your being fake, you turn around and blame school shootings on us because we aren't supporting government taking all our guns.  You just sound fake.

This is why as I keep pointing out since you don't believe any of this, you're a big government socialist, you just always sound fake.  You think you're accurately stating an extreme form of the ideology to troll the board.  But you don't sound extreme, you sound disingenuous.  Read more of Tom's posts.  He's a genuine lunatic
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Supreme Court: "Cruel and Unusual Sounds Fine to Us!"
Reply #63 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:34am
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kaz wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:55am:
Your example would be more accurate if you come in the garage and someone is robbing you of your lawn mower.  That's a less ambiguous situation.

By the time they are walking down the street with it, you have other options and the situation is less clear.  Libertarian views would differ at that point on killing them.  Maybe they have the same brand of lawnmower you do and yours is still in your garage ...  A lot of things can go wrong at that point.  If they are in your garage taking your lawnmower, it's still not 100% unambiguous, but it's a lot more so.  Maybe still they are the new neighbor and your wife lent it to them.  Your view that libertarians are all Yosemite Sam is your problem, not ours.

This is why as I keep pointing out since you don't believe any of this, you're a big government socialist, you just always sound fake.  You think you're accurately stating an extreme form of the ideology to troll the board.  But you don't sound extreme, you sound disingenuous.  Read more of Tom's posts.  He's a genuine lunatic


Assuming that I know for sure that the lawnmower is mine, what options do I have when the thief is walking away on the sidewalk that I would not have if I catch them in my garage?


  

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Re: Supreme Court: "Cruel and Unusual Sounds Fine to Us!"
Reply #64 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:49am
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:34am:
Assuming that I know for sure that the lawnmower is mine, what options do I have when the thief is walking away on the sidewalk that I would not have if I catch them in my garage?




Agreed, let's stipulate to that someone sole your lawn mower and avoid if this if that.

1) It's not just options.  If they are in your garage robbing you, you may assume they are armed and hostile and you are defending yourself, your family and your property.  If they are walking down the street, they are not a threat

2)  So then you have the obvious.  The police (criminal) and civil.

If you're arguing you can just shoot them.  Where is the line?  If you think they cheated you at poker?  If they took your beer at a party you can waste them?  If the neighbor kid grabs your kid's toy, you can shoot them?

This is the thing with your pretending to be something you're not.  You aren't thinking, you are just trying to troll and shock by jumping to extreme statements.  You just sound so fake doing it since you're actually a government loving socialist, Don
  

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Re: Supreme Court: "Cruel and Unusual Sounds Fine to Us!"
Reply #65 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 11:21am
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kaz wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:55am:
Your view that libertarians are all Yosemite Sam is your problem, not ours.


This is really the heart of it. No, libertarians aren't gun-happy lunatics who think they can shoot people they think are walking away with their lawnmowers.

That's not what libertarianism is. Libertarianism is about respecting rights. You don't respect rights when you decide you can go off half-cocked and shoot people.

That's what I've been arguing this whole time.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Big Man
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Re: Supreme Court: "Cruel and Unusual Sounds Fine to Us!"
Reply #66 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 12:35pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 11:21am:
This is really the heart of it. No, libertarians aren't gun-happy lunatics who think they can shoot people they think are walking away with their lawnmowers.

That's not what libertarianism is. Libertarianism is about respecting rights. You don't respect rights when you decide you can go off half-cocked and shoot people.

That's what I've been arguing this whole time.


In reality, libertarians are more easily found in book stores than in gun stores.  The gun-happy crowd are more likely to be police and police fanboys than libertarians. 

But libertarians recognize, or should recognize, that it is primarily the responsibility of individuals to protect their property rights.  Police powers are (or certainly should be) an extension of individual rights to self-defense. 




  

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Re: Supreme Court: "Cruel and Unusual Sounds Fine to Us!"
Reply #67 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:17pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 12:35pm:
In reality, libertarians are more easily found in book stores than in gun stores.  The gun-happy crowd are more likely to be police and police fanboys than libertarians. 

But libertarians recognize, or should recognize, that it is primarily the responsibility of individuals to protect their property rights.  Police powers are (or certainly should be) an extension of individual rights to self-defense. 


Self-defence does not extend to people you think are taking your lawnmower. It does not extend to people taking a stick of gum from you. Only the police-supporting gunnies you mention would think it did.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: Supreme Court: "Cruel and Unusual Sounds Fine to Us!"
Reply #68 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 10:02am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:17pm:
Self-defence does not extend to people you think are taking your lawnmower. It does not extend to people taking a stick of gum from you. Only the police-supporting gunnies you mention would think it did.


And socialists trolling libertarian message boards ...
  

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Re: Supreme Court: "Cruel and Unusual Sounds Fine to Us!"
Reply #69 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 10:05am
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kaz wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:49am:
If you're arguing you can just shoot them.  Where is the line?  If you think they cheated you at poker?  If they took your beer at a party you can waste them?  If the neighbor kid grabs your kid's toy, you can shoot them?


Here's Burnsred running away from the question ...



“Brave Sir Robin ran away… bravely ran away away…When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled. Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about, and valiantly, he chickened out. Bravely taking to his feet, he beat a very brave retreat. A brave retreat by brave Sir Robin.”
  

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