Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Church of the Invisible Hand
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6]  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Church of the Invisible Hand (Read 590 times)
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 7408
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Church of the Invisible Hand
Reply #50 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 7:12am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:16pm:
The best libertarians are the most hostile.

It's a very dogmatic belief structure


It's "dogmatic" to believe that we can make our own decisions.  So you're just using common sense when you say we can't.

I've pointed out to you that government is made up of people, poindexter.

Since you are arguing people can't make our own decisions, explain how people can use force to make decisions for others for them
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9282
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Church of the Invisible Hand
Reply #51 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 9:50pm
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 7:12am:
It's "dogmatic" to believe that we can make our own decisions.  So you're just using common sense when you say we can't.

I've pointed out to you that government is made up of people, poindexter.

Since you are arguing people can't make our own decisions, explain how people can use force to make decisions for others for them


You're the one arguing that I should be forced to buy car insurance.

I have never suggested that I have the right to make anybody's decisions for them.

As a non-libertarian, I just want to leave others alone.

It'd be nice if I could join that church, but I'd need rights to do that.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
johnfkosanke
Junior Member
**
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 21
Joined: Apr 6th, 2019
Re: Church of the Invisible Hand
Reply #52 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 6:28am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 9:50pm:
I have never suggested that I have the right to make anybody's decisions for them.

As a non-libertarian, I just want to leave others alone.

It'd be nice if I could join that church, but I'd need rights to do that.


Would you sign the Civil Order Pact? If not, what disagreement do you have with it?

Quote:
I/We will not willfully support or defend any public or private action that:
  • intrudes against anyone's person, property, or mutual transactions,
  • restricts anyone's thoughts, or nonintrusive actions in, on, or with his person or property,
  • dictates anyone's thoughts, or actions concerning his person or property,
  • takes anyone's money, property, time, labor, health, or life, against his will,
  • prevents anyone from defending his person, property, thoughts, or actions, or
  • obstructs compensation to a victim of the above classes of aggression, or to his estate, for actual losses suffered thereby.



https://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Civil_Order_Pact
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 7408
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Church of the Invisible Hand
Reply #53 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:35am
Print Post  
johnfkosanke wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 6:28am:


Would you sign the Civil Order Pact? If not, what disagreement do you have with it?


https://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Civil_Order_Pact


Those rules are too vague, I would never agree to any system that ambiguous.

For example, victims have the right to compensation, but you can't aggress on anyone's property.  So how do you decide to waive the no aggression on property rule?
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
johnfkosanke
Junior Member
**
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 21
Joined: Apr 6th, 2019
Re: Church of the Invisible Hand
Reply #54 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:18pm
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:35am:
Those rules are too vague, I would never agree to any system that ambiguous.

For example, victims have the right to compensation, but you can't aggress on anyone's property.  So how do you decide to waive the no aggression on property rule?


Please read it more carefully. The pact deals with actions taken by the state. Interactions by sovereign individuals are dealt with elsewhere (in the legal marketplace). Arbitrators, and the parties concerned, make those decisions on an individual, case-by-case basis. Private arbitration is already a proven concept. See the American Arbitration Agency for examples.
« Last Edit: Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:43am by johnfkosanke »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9282
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Church of the Invisible Hand
Reply #55 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:05pm
Print Post  
johnfkosanke wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 6:28am:
Would you sign the Civil Order Pact? If not, what disagreement do you have with it?


Of course I would agree to it, but I don't need to since I wouldn't do any of those things anyway. I just want to leave people alone.

Unfortunately, I don't have any rights, so they don't have to leave me alone.

(Although with the third point, you're ruling out IP, which Rothbard says is legitimate, I don't have to agree with the spirit of that point since all it requires of me is negative actions.)
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
johnfkosanke
Junior Member
**
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 21
Joined: Apr 6th, 2019
Re: Church of the Invisible Hand
Reply #56 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 11:53pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:05pm:
Of course I would agree to it, but I don't need to since I wouldn't do any of those things anyway. I just want to leave people alone.

Unfortunately, I don't have any rights, so they don't have to leave me alone.


As an Arbitrator under COP, you are a guarantor of their right to be left alone, and of compliance by political signatories.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9282
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Church of the Invisible Hand
Reply #57 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:08am
Print Post  
johnfkosanke wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 11:53pm:
As an Arbitrator under COP, you are a guarantor of their right to be left alone, and of compliance by political signatories.


But you can't grant rights to someone who doesn't have them innately.

Why would anyone agree not to hurt me?

Their natural rights already protect them from me, and they can harm me with impunity because I have no rights.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
johnfkosanke
Junior Member
**
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 21
Joined: Apr 6th, 2019
Re: Church of the Invisible Hand
Reply #58 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:37am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:08am:
But you can't grant rights to someone who doesn't have them innately.

Why would anyone agree not to hurt me?


It works something like the libertarian pledge, except that it has teeth. The libertarian pledge creates a community that follows NAP - in theory. But there is no enforcement mechanism. That's how folks like Gary Johnson and Bill Weld can say that they are not in full agreement with the Libertarian Platform, and get away with it. I have tried in vain to work with the Party to create such a mechanism.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yZJ6zLLkdcTtGN4aUmBIHOc0Csh5i0VlsLFWGSpNb5c/...

If you look over the legal structure of CIH, you will note that Arbitrators can gain additional seats in proportion to the number of politicians that, as a result of their efforts, abide by NAP - as defined in COP.

As you have stated above;

The Opposition wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 9:33pm:
I would prefer that rights work by agreement.



You may get your wish.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Church of the Invisible Hand
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy