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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line (Read 851 times)
Jeff
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #10 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:40pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:59am:
But, you admitted that taxes are aggression, correct?
No.
  
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Jeff
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #11 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:46pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:27am:
It pisses me off that both of them were talking about very specific things - the Treaty of Versailles and the Tea Tax, respectively - but neither of them said anything like, "This is exactly why this thing meets this criterion."
The complaint of the colonists in America was that they were being taxed without being represented in Parliament. Their specific claim was that taxation without representation was tyrannical.

They had other complaints too, mainly about laws that favored English shippers over colonial shippers, and that closed certain specific markets to American products, essentially complaints about crony capitalism and government controlled markets.
  
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kaz
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #12 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:57pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:46pm:
The complaint of the colonists in America was that they were being taxed without being represented in Parliament. Their specific claim was that taxation without representation was tyrannical


That's what they said.  In reality, they wanted no taxes.  The taxes they paid for British defense were paltry
  

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Jeff
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #13 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 7:20pm
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kaz wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:57pm:
That's what they said.  In reality, they wanted no taxes.  The taxes they paid for British defense were paltry
Do you have any evidence that the colonial governments ever stopped collecting taxes when they became independent states? (The colonies did have their own militias too, but they were largely ineffective.)

Obviously, they thought they could create a confederation supported by contributions from the states, but that didn't pan out...
  
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SkyChief
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #14 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:20pm
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kaz wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:57pm:
  In reality, [the colonists] wanted no taxes.  The taxes they paid for British defense were paltry

Right.  They didn't want ANY taxes.

Neither do libertarains.

Since we believe that every man is entitled to keep the fruits of his labor, we are opposed to all government activity which consists of the forcible collection money or goods from citizens in violation of their individual rights. Specifically, we support the eventual repeal of all taxation.
  - Libertarian Party

"There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him."  -  Robert A. Heinlein
  
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The Opposition
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #15 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:23pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:20pm:
Right.  They didn't want ANY taxes.


The Americans were caught in the middle. They were forced to pay, ultimately, for their own defence. It hit them hard, though.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #16 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 7:02am
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:20pm:
Right.  They didn't want ANY taxes.

Neither do libertarains.


You mean neither do Libertarians.  Most libertarians support limited taxes.  In English, you capitalize proper names.  This isn't pointing to a typo.  Typos don't change the meaning of the text

SkyChief wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:20pm:
Since we believe that every man is entitled to keep the fruits of his labor, we are opposed to all government activity which consists of the forcible collection money or goods from citizens in violation of their individual rights. Specifically, we support the eventual repeal of all taxation.
  - Libertarian Party

"There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him."  -  Robert A. Heinlein


And yet when they created their own country, they grew up and realized they were going to have to pay them, so they decided to work to keep them limited.  It worked for about a century and a half.  But I pointed out they just opposed all taxes under the British because factually they did.  I'm not afraid of facts like Jeff and burnsred are.  I don't change them when they don't suit my argument.

But good luck on your dream that you live one moment of your life in freedom until you're overrun by criminals and then conquered by a foreign power.  Living in a tower with a gun protecting your property will just make the free air you breathe all the more sweet during your brief time as a free anarchist.

Of course you'll live the rest of your life in servitude, but you'll have that moment of freedom to remember to bring joy to your endless days of slavery that follow.

This is why the Libertarian Party is so ineffective and can't even consistently get my vote.  They aren't nominating libertarians, they are attention whoring and nominating Republicans to impact elections for attention.  And they aren't effective themselves because of stupid shit like no taxes.

The Republican party is more fertile ground at this point to make a difference.  And that's not because of anything they do, just how out of touch with reality the Libertarian Party is
  

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kaz
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #17 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 7:08am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:23pm:
The Americans were caught in the middle. They were forced to pay, ultimately, for their own defence. It hit them hard, though.


Ironically, initially our defense was needed most urgently against the blood thirsty British hordes who were conscripting Americans into their military and then invaded us
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #18 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 8:24am
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kaz wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 7:08am:
Ironically, initially our defense was needed most urgently against the blood thirsty British hordes who were conscripting Americans into their military and then invaded us


Yes!

Correct!

DING DING DING DING DING!

That’s what government becomes as soon as they are allowed to tax to pay for services.  Most of them started as a way to collect taxes, then they started providing services to avoid rebellions.   The few that started out as service providers soon turned extortionist as soon as they realized that they had a “monopoly on legitimate use of force.”

Sure, if you pay them, they will provide Some Level of protection.  But like any extortion Racket, what You need protection from the most is what Would happen If you don’t pay.
  

Snarky no more!
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kaz
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #19 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 8:35am
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 8:24am:
Yes!

Correct!

DING DING DING DING DING!

That’s what government becomes as soon as they are allowed to tax to pay for services.  Most of them started as a way to collect taxes, then they started providing services to avoid rebellions.   The few that started out as service providers soon turned extortionist as soon as they realized that they had a “monopoly on legitimate use of force.”

Sure, if you pay them, they will provide Some Level of protection.  But like any extortion Racket, what You need protection from the most is what Would happen If you don’t pay.


This was one of your better trolling attempts.  A pattern or an aberration?

Actually, this shows the need to protect us from outside invaders.

There's no conclusion to your no taxes, no taxes, no taxes mantra that doesn't involve any other solution.

Burnsred:  We should have let the British invade us to be free!

OK, it's still lame, but you chose lame when you chose to troll the board
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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