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Tom Palven
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #30 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 5:36am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 11:23am:
I've often wondered what standard exactly is used by men who rebel against corrupt governments.


"Tonight, both Chelsea Manning and Julian Assange are in jail, both over offences related to the publication of materials specifying US war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq, and both charged with nothing else at all."
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BobK71
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #31 - yesterday at 3:08pm
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Good topic.  Here are my 2 cents...

It's possible to give some people worse than the state of nature, while others better (e.g. what the Nazis did.)  It's also possible that a government gives people better than the state of nature, but not as good as they deserve according to their intelligence and organizing ability, and the government closes off all avenues to peaceful systemic change (e.g. Communist countries.)

The state of nature, in the case of humans, is also more involved than for many other animals.  Humans are not meant to survive as individuals in nature, but as members of groups (though much smaller ones than today's nation-state.)  You can argue there is no such thing as a state of nature with humans living as lone individuals, as we never evolved that way.

(The way our society is today, we could splinter into a state of nature where each individual was totally on their own, if our institutions failed totally.  But that's not the same thing, is it?  That would be a collapsed state of something that is artificial and distorted to start with, not something we were ever meant to be, biologically.)

I would argue that a true state of nature for humans is thus *better* than anything resembling today's governments can possibly offer.  It would be living among a group who know each other from birth to death, under a well-established set of rules governing the relationship among them.  There would be little room for deceit, theft, and corruption, because the all-encompassing, multiply-connected social networks would make secret dealings difficult.  Most importantly, there would be peace that comes from trust.

We have little actual evidence of how early humans related to each other (say, from the first humans of 2 million years ago to about 70,000 years ago when large groupings began to form.)  But we can look at the faded reflections of a past in our own selves and try to piece together what social system might have formed from the human nature we can still, if barely, see in ourselves.

What makes us truly happy is being connected emotionally with other humans, and doing work, as painful as work can sometimes be, that benefits ourselves and those others, and being appreciated for it.  That is, being a member of a pack that depend on each other.  In this 'state of nature,' there seems to be little need for a formal government.  Government is required only when strangers must work with each other, and putting strangers together to form large groups was, from day one, a project that 'benefited' the elites at the expense of everyone else.
  
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kaz
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #32 - yesterday at 4:08pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:13pm:
That it's more difficult for the economy to grow to accommodate snowbirds because the people needed to serve the snowbirds can't commit to serving the snowbirds.

To have people occupying those niches and surviving, those niches need to be there for the whole year.


Why?  There's no economic benefit to seasonal business?  What happens to the profits then?  Someone comes and collects them and tosses the money in the harbor?
  

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The Opposition
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #33 - yesterday at 9:27pm
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BobK71 wrote yesterday at 3:08pm:
It's possible to give some people worse than the state of nature, while others better (e.g. what the Nazis did.)


Then the Jews could object on that basis.

BobK71 wrote yesterday at 3:08pm:
It's also possible that a government gives people better than the state of nature, but not as good as they deserve according to their intelligence and organizing ability, and the government closes off all avenues to peaceful systemic change (e.g. Communist countries.)


The government alone (in every modern society) sees to punishing aggressors.

If, because of that, you have two more apples than you would in a state of nature, my contention is that you can't argue that you're "owed" three apples. Maybe you'd be able to get them in a better system, but perhaps a better system exists and will let you move there.

Rebellion is justified when you have less apples than you would in a state of nature.

BobK71 wrote yesterday at 3:08pm:
I would argue that a true state of nature for humans is thus *better* than anything resembling today's governments can possibly offer.  It would be living among a group who know each other from birth to death, under a well-established set of rules governing the relationship among them.  There would be little room for deceit, theft, and corruption, because the all-encompassing, multiply-connected social networks would make secret dealings difficult.  Most importantly, there would be peace that comes from trust.


That would be a good argument that rebellion is justified.

However, what would happen if all the people in America suddenly entered into that state?

They'd be taken over immediately by a worse government.

It's thus difficult for the proposed standard to maintain that some groups exist and not others. But I think it still functions properly with no groups.

Imagine yourself and one mate on a plot of land that barely sustains you and your children. No one can help you, because no one else exists. You can self-replace but only barely.

Are you better off?

I say yes.

BobK71 wrote yesterday at 3:08pm:
Government is required only when strangers must work with each other,


I would dispute that. Like a male lion, who only eats and contributes nothing to the pride, his primary purpose is to protect the pride from other male lions.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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The Opposition
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #34 - yesterday at 9:31pm
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kaz wrote yesterday at 4:08pm:
Why?  There's no economic benefit to seasonal business?  What happens to the profits then?  Someone comes and collects them and tosses the money in the harbor?


Obviously there is a benefit to seasonal business. I didn't say there wasn't.

But what happens when that benefit means the business must hire more people to exploit it fully? Grandma's Kitchen needs 4 more cooks and 10 more waitresses to properly accommodate the snowbirds.

Where are you going to get cooks and waitresses who enter into an ethereal hibernation state for half the year and thus don't need jobs, food, or shelter during that time?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #35 - Today at 7:06am
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The Opposition wrote yesterday at 9:27pm:
Rebellion is justified when you have less apples than you would in a state of nature.
How would you make such a determination?

Right now, I can buy all the apples I want all year long in my local supermarket. In a state of nature, I'll be lucky to ever find a good apple to eat.
  
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Jeff
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #36 - Today at 7:10am
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The Opposition wrote yesterday at 9:31pm:
Obviously there is a benefit to seasonal business. I didn't say there wasn't.

But what happens when that benefit means the business must hire more people to exploit it fully? Grandma's Kitchen needs 4 more cooks and 10 more waitresses to properly accommodate the snowbirds.

Where are you going to get cooks and waitresses who enter into an ethereal hibernation state for half the year and thus don't need jobs, food, or shelter during that time?
Lots of people look for and accept seasonal jobs. I did it for years when I was in high school and college.

Hey, I work at a ski resort in the winter and a beach resort in the summer. Not only do I make a good living, I get in lots of skiing and surfing. Smiley
  
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kaz
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #37 - Today at 7:47am
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The Opposition wrote yesterday at 9:31pm:
Obviously there is a benefit to seasonal business. I didn't say there wasn't.

But what happens when that benefit means the business must hire more people to exploit it fully? Grandma's Kitchen needs 4 more cooks and 10 more waitresses to properly accommodate the snowbirds.

Where are you going to get cooks and waitresses who enter into an ethereal hibernation state for half the year and thus don't need jobs, food, or shelter during that time?


Seasonal workers may be college students.  Some semi retired people.  Some are not fully employed people.  The owners of the businesses and their families provide much of the labor.  There are also workers who work other seasons in other businesses.  Some of the people are employed year round but get extra hours or work harder in the summer.

The opportunity is seasonal.  It's not year round.  So?  There is the opportunity to exploit the season that is there.  What does "fully exploit" even mean to you?  I don't get what point you think you're making.  Of course it's fully exploited, it's a seasonal opportunity.  Explain what "fully exploit" means in your dictionary of made up terms
  

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The Opposition
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #38 - Today at 10:34am
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kaz wrote Today at 7:47am:
Seasonal workers may be college students.  Some semi retired people.  Some are not fully employed people.  The owners of the businesses and their families provide much of the labor.  There are also workers who work other seasons in other businesses.  Some of the people are employed year round but get extra hours or work harder in the summer.

The opportunity is seasonal.  It's not year round.  So?  There is the opportunity to exploit the season that is there.  What does "fully exploit" even mean to you?  I don't get what point you think you're making.  Of course it's fully exploited, it's a seasonal opportunity.  Explain what "fully exploit" means in your dictionary of made up terms


All I meant is that you're going to have limited choices for those employees. College students and whatnot can't entirely fill the demand. Even then, semesters don't line up perfectly with the snowbird season.

This is why everywhere with snowbirds always feels crowded. Businesses have limited ability to expand to serve them, and new businesses can't just crop up to serve them and die off in the winter.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: When *Exactly* Government Crosses the Line
Reply #39 - Today at 10:50am
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The Opposition wrote Today at 10:34am:
All I meant is that you're going to have limited choices for those employees. College students and whatnot can't entirely fill the demand. Even then, semesters don't line up perfectly with the snowbird season.


Right, try reading my post, the one you quoted.  I specifically addressed that

The Opposition wrote Today at 10:34am:
This is why everywhere with snowbirds always feels crowded. Businesses have limited ability to expand to serve them


Wow, that's wrong.  Sure, it may be true of for example major manufacturing companies.  But the service industry?  Of course they can

The Opposition wrote Today at 10:34am:
and new businesses can't just crop up to serve them and die off in the winter.


And yet, lots of them do.  Wrong again.  Some close in the winter, some scale back staff.  They do it all the time.

And you haven't explained what you mean by fully exploited.  It's a seasonal opportunity.  It generates comparative economic benefit.  How is that not "fully exploiting" the opportunity present?  I still say that is just a vacuous sentence with no real meaning with a term you made up
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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