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SkyChief
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Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Apr 9th, 2019 at 12:48pm
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It has failed everywhere it has been tried  -  Government hand-outs to "lift" poor people from poverty.  It failed in Finland. https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/interview/finnish-finance-minister...

Ignoring UBI's dismal record, Opposition leader Rahul Gandhi is trying to get votes by promising 72,000 rupees ($1,038) a year to each of the country’s 50 million poorest families.

Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party has criticized Gandhi for promoting the UBI policy claiming it will raise the tax burden on the middle class.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/india-runs-1-000-test-230013163.html



Andrew Yang, an American businessman who is running for the 2020 Democratic nomination for president, said his proposal to provide every American with a $1,000 guaranteed monthly income would help "solve the problems that got Donald Trump elected in 2016."

So Yang thinks government can "solve the problems".   

"Big government isn't the answer to the problem, it IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #1 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 10:16pm
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If you work 40 hours a week, you should be better off than someone who works zero.

It seems nowadays that the only way to make that happen is UBI.

I am against UBI of course, but I am slightly more against selective welfare systems with tons of red tape that make the welfare class live better than the working class.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #2 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 10:37pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 10:16pm:
If you work 40 hours a week, you should be better off than someone who works zero.
Says who?

Please explain your proposition. Thanks.

I no longer labor for my livelihood... Are you saying I should be required to live in poverty?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #3 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 10:38pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 10:16pm:
I am against UBI of course, but I am slightly more against selective welfare systems with tons of red tape that make the welfare class live better than the working class.
Swell.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #4 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 11:10pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 10:37pm:
Says who?


Not libertarians; that's for sure.

I'm sure you have some tube you'll add to your marvelous convoluted philosophy that says it's fine for people to suck welfare as long as the working class suffers.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #5 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 7:52am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 11:10pm:
Not libertarians; that's for sure.

I'm sure you have some tube you'll add to your marvelous convoluted philosophy that says it's fine for people to suck welfare as long as the working class suffers.
Libertarians almost all think welfare is a bad idea along with all other forms of wealth re-distribution.

There are always unintended consequences on top of the basic immorality of taking money from productive people and giving it to whoever the lawmakers want to give it to.

Here's a bad consequence of crony capitalism. Giving money to Boeing has led to this:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-08/trump-responds-to-eu-airbus-s...
  
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ahhell
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Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #6 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:47am
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 12:48pm:
It has failed everywhere it has been tried  -  Government hand-outs to "lift" poor people from poverty.  It failed in Finland. https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/interview/finnish-finance-minister...

Ignoring UBI's dismal record, Opposition leader Rahul Gandhi is trying to get votes by promising 72,000 rupees ($1,038) a year to each of the country’s 50 million poorest families.

Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party has criticized Gandhi for promoting the UBI policy claiming it will raise the tax burden on the middle class.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/india-runs-1-000-test-230013163.html



Andrew Yang, an American businessman who is running for the 2020 Democratic nomination for president, said his proposal to provide every American with a $1,000 guaranteed monthly income would help "solve the problems that got Donald Trump elected in 2016."

So Yang thinks government can "solve the problems".   

"Big government isn't the answer to the problem, it IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

UBI could actually result in smaller government, the quote does not apply.

Also, the Finnish experiment "failed" because it did not increase employment but just improved the standard of living of the participants. 

As far as I know its been tried three times.  Finnland recently(though actually more of a partial universal basic income) a town in Canada in which the quit have way through and never really analyzed the data and the socialist dystopia of Alaska over the last 30 years. 

As I have said, I'm ambivalent about it but lets not pretend the data is definitive in anyway.  There are clear advantages over other social welfare systems that should be considered.  The big flaw is how we pay for it and that if instituted, it will likely just be added to the existing bureaucratic BS rather than replacing them.  Also, as I have mentioned, Libertarians have lost the argument, the folk want to be taken care of.  The best we can do is harm reduction.  UBI would reduce harm and create a more libertarian society if it is used to replace welfare, foodstamps, SS, et al. 

Also, its worth listening to Yang.  UBI is getting the most attention but he's actually talking about meaningful issues and looking for solutions in sharp contrast to folks like Beto, AOC, and Trump.  There is going to be a significant distruption to the economy soon as a result of more automation.  We need to figure out what to do with millions of folks who don't have skills anyone wants to pay for or we'll end up with the likes of AOC in charge.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #7 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:44am
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ahhell wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:47am:
UBI could actually result in smaller government, the quote does not apply.

Fascinating. 
  
How will the government raise the funding to pay for UBI?   Where will the Trillions of dollars come from?     How could wealth redistribution make gov't smaller?

Please be specific.   Smiley

ahhell wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:47am:
...Also, its worth listening to Yang.
  I disagree. 

Yang a socialist nobody who will fade into obscurity once the caucuses begin.   

Taxpayers will be expected to pay for UBI.  Voters will reject UBI, and they will reject Yang.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #8 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:56am
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If it's instead of welfare, UBI could shrink the government.

Massive amounts of funds are deployed just to keep the red tape working so everyone does not get welfare who applies for it. Generational welfare recipients know how to bypass it.

So some poor people starve, working people are worse off than those who do not work, and those who know the ropes are allowed to parasitise ad nauseum. None of this is saving anyone any money over UBI.

I understand why libertarians like welfare over UBI, though. It very much fits the model that whoever is cleverer at whatever system is in place should prosper at the expense of those who don't know enough to exploit that system.

The NAP only exists as it is so that people can harm others with impunity. Libertarians love their red tape and their red tape ribbon dancing. The clever, the exploitative, should win. The productive should lose.

"Hey, Mr. Libertarian, what's the way to the store?"

"Tehehehe, over that way." *points to cliff*

"Are you sure, this looks like-" *falls to his death*

"Hehehehehe, lies aren't aggression. Not murder!"
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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ahhell
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Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #9 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 11:18am
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:44am:
Fascinating. 
  
How will the government raise the funding to pay for UBI?   Where will the Trillions of dollars come from?     How could wealth redistribution make gov't smaller?

Please be specific.   Smiley
Please read my previous post. 


Nevermind, you Won't

UBI requires basically zero additional bureaucracy, convert welfare, foodstamps etc to a UBI you can eliminate all the paternalistic BS. You don't have to verify income, need, number of children anything.  Everybody just gets there check each month. 


As I noted, the cost and how to pay for it are the biggest problems.  It would be necessary to end many if not all of the existing welfare programs in order to pay for it.

Sure, the pure libertarian solution to the poor and unskilled is to let them starve, the rest of the country is not willing to do that.  Good luck getting your pure libertarian government in place.
« Last Edit: Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:28pm by ahhell »  
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