Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes (Read 951 times)
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10031
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #10 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 11:31am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:56am:
I understand why libertarians like welfare over UBI, though.

Libertarians like welfare?     Wow.    That's news to me.

Welfare is a Marxist program where the government takes money (by coercion) from one group of people and redistributes it to another.

I would like to hear about libertarians who think this makes a lick of sense.

Just a few names would be helpful.     Smiley    
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9730
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #11 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:25pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 11:31am:
Libertarians like welfare?


...over UBI.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 7988
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #12 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 7:13am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:25pm:
...over UBI.


What insight is there to saying for example that someone likes rape over armed robbery?

  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobK71
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 867
Joined: Jun 12th, 2015
Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #13 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 12:57pm
Print Post  
Moral hazard aside, you have to wonder how UBI can possibly work.

Handing out money to the lucky by the central bank is inflationary.  Handing out money directly to everybody is really inflationary.

Sadly, I think this might actually work in the rich world.  Income growth might outpace inflation, at least for the bottom part of the Western populace.  The reason is that much of the real cost would be borne by the developing world.  The imperial police would ensure these countries continue to honor dollars and euros with real goods and services, by 'managing' exchange rates properly.  A government either toes the line, or it's regime-change time.  (In reality this threat rarely needs to be made -- the boom-bust cycle of the dollar-dominated system ensures that it's in the interest of developing-world governments to devalue, over the long term.)

This whole dynamic is why generous public benefits are only really possible in the rich world.  India is in a bit of a bind: it can't really afford UBI, and yet it's got a democracy that tries to imitate the West.  This can't end well.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 7988
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #14 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:11am
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:47am:
UBI could actually result in smaller government, the quote does not apply


It's amazing how you don't think the money government takes from one person and gives to another through force counts as cost of government
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 7988
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #15 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:13am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:25pm:
...over UBI.


It's not about how the money is distributed, it's about how much is distributed.  We want zero distributed.  But you're saying for these options

Welfare - redistribute $1
UBI - redistribute $10

Libertarians - we'll pick the first one over the second

Opposition:  OMG, you prefer welfare

That's a big old swish for you there, good buddy
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2414
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #16 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 10:51am
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:13am:
It's not about how the money is distributed, it's about how much is distributed.  We want zero distributed.  But you're saying for these options

Welfare - redistribute $1
UBI - redistribute $10

Libertarians - we'll pick the first one over the second

Opposition:  OMG, you prefer welfare

That's a big old swish for you there, good buddy

More accurately:

Welfare - redistribute $8
UBI - Redistribute $10

kaz wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:11am:
It's amazing how you don't think the money government takes from one person and gives to another through force counts as cost of government

Cost and size are to different things.  I would rather the government take 30% of my income and otherwise leave me alone than take 20% then tell me what to do with the remaining 80% or use 80% to bribe some other schmuck into doing what some busy body things they ought to. Granted that's a bit of a false dichotomy to illustrate the point. 

Taking my dollar and giving it to someone else fire of strings is actually more libertarian than taking my 50% and giving it to someone but only if they use it to by government approved groceries or medical care or what ever else some thinks they really ought to be doing.  And would result in a smaller bureuacracy as we wouldn't have to pay someone to go and make sure the money was being spent in the government approved manner.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9730
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #17 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 11:08am
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:13am:
It's not about how the money is distributed, it's about how much is distributed.  We want zero distributed.  But you're saying for these options

Welfare - redistribute $1
UBI - redistribute $10

Libertarians - we'll pick the first one over the second

Opposition:  OMG, you prefer welfare

That's a big old swish for you there, good buddy


That's all I said; that you would prefer welfare over UBI. I was correct.

ahhell wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 10:51am:
Taking my dollar and giving it to someone else fire of strings is actually more libertarian than taking my 50% and giving it to someone but only if they use it to by government approved groceries or medical care or what ever else some thinks they really ought to be doing.


No, it's not. You could derive this fact by simply giving them the goods instead of the money to be used for those goods.

ahhell wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 10:51am:
And would result in a smaller bureuacracy


Who cares? The objective is to be 100% libertarian, so we must not have a deviation from that (UBI), but welfare is better because reasons.

Basically I was right. The biggest libertarian will always defend the least fair system over the more fair system, because it's about rights, not fairness. (But really so he can profit.)
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 7988
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #18 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:30am
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 10:51am:
More accurately:

Welfare - redistribute $8
UBI - Redistribute $10


According to government statistics, we spend $668 billion a year on welfare.  So by your $3.9 Trillion number, we would spend 6 times as much, not 25% more as you claim.

And that's based on a pretty low UBI.  You seriously believe it won't quickly go up from there?

Not to mention all the people who will stop working reducing our ability to pay for it
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 7988
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Reply #19 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:35am
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 10:51am:
Taking my dollar and giving it to someone else fire of strings is actually more libertarian than taking my 50% and giving it to someone but only if they use it to by government approved groceries or medical care

There is nothing libertarian about taking my money and giving it to someone else at all, so it's a preposterous statement.

And you doubled the Federal government even before the UBI starts going up as everyone now is being literally paid to vote for
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Indian Politician Promises Universal Basic Income To Get Votes
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy