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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) We tried voluntary taxes, Chief (Read 593 times)
The Opposition
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #10 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 11:05am
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kaz wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:09am:
I'd love to be an anarchist, but I won't do it as long as I see it in reality reducing my liberty rather than increasing it.


This is the heart of the philosophy. Libertarians must have all the practical liberty... at the expense of everyone else's.

You'll mop the debate floor with me on every issue, so that I get less practical liberty even than I have now, but you just admitted you want more. So yes, this is about hurting some to advantage others.

It turns out:
1. Yes, I must be mandated to buy car insurance. (neutral to me)
2. ...But price controls are unlibertarian! (minus to me, since I'll be paying more - the government controls prices now)
3. Can't have an animal that risks or is a nuisance to others. (minus to me)
4. ...But dogs can bark all day and all night. (minus to me)
5. I can't call the police, who are an aggressive instrument of the aggressive State, and also, this is me knowingly utilising both my stolen money, and the stolen money of others, so it's theft. (minus to me)
6. Can't use self-defence to protect my property if it endangers a life. (minus to me)

Ideal liberty might not be a zero-sum game, but practical liberty is. If you want freedom from noise, someone else must sacrifice the freedom to make noise.

Statists acknowledge that fact, and they want everyone to live in non-deal, square-shaped rights-bubbles, each sacrificing some of their ideal rights around the corners so everyone can be equal under the law and live together.

Libertarians are concerned only with increasing the size of their bubbles as big as possible, and screw everyone else who gets trampled. I have had nothing but support for this idea of what libertarians are.

  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #11 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 12:07pm
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kaz wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:09am:
So you respond to someone playing you and trolling the board because as disingenuous as he is, he says what you want to hear. 
Any time someone advocates eliminating taxes, that's a good thing.

On a forum such as this one, more than half of the threads should be about eliminating income taxes, as taxation is the biggest form of tyranny that the government can use against its citizens.

Burns does so yeah, I like to hear that kind of talk.

There's a strong shift towards socialism on the left.  They are trying to transform the US into another socialist shithole like Venezuela.   They rally behind Marxist socialists like AOC and Bernie and Pocahontas. 

I heard that Cory Booker and others are advocating Sanders' "Medicare for All" plan - a plan which will cost taxpayers a whopping $32.6 TRILLION over 10 years.

Income Taxes on the middle class would need to nearly double to pay for this.  The left knows this, but they don't care.   They want socialism at ANY cost.

Eventually, we will have a Democrat president.  Government will expand even further, and individual liberties eroded even more.   Libertarians can't stop them - we don't have the numbers.   It must be the GOP.

kaz wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:09am:
Libertarian is about life, not the after life
   Smiley
  
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kaz
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #12 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:42am
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 12:07pm:
Any time someone advocates eliminating taxes, that's a good thing

...

Burns does so yeah, I like to hear that kind of talk


A socialist trolling the board and being against taxes is good?  Sure it is.

And I'm not sure why you brought up income taxes.  I'm assuming you have long term memory and remember we've always agreed on eliminating income taxes.

My point is about your statement of eliminating taxes, which means no military, no police, no courts, no property recognition, no management of limited resources.  Just our being terrorized by criminals until we are conquered by foreign powers and forced into slavery.  That's the part you advocate I don't get

SkyChief wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 12:07pm:
There's a strong shift towards socialism on the left.  They are trying to transform the US into another socialist shithole like Venezuela.   They rally behind Marxist socialists like AOC and Bernie and Pocahontas. 

I heard that Cory Booker and others are advocating Sanders' "Medicare for All" plan - a plan which will cost taxpayers a whopping $32.6 TRILLION over 10 years.

Income Taxes on the middle class would need to nearly double to pay for this.  The left knows this, but they don't care.   They want socialism at ANY cost.

Eventually, we will have a Democrat president.  Government will expand even further, and individual liberties eroded even more.   Libertarians can't stop them - we don't have the numbers.   It must be the GOP.

   Smiley


True, but libertarians could actually help the Republicans do that.  There are a lot of Democrat voters who are afraid of the social and military rhetoric of Republicans.  It's not just the number of libertarians.  But if you took Republicans and added a libertarian tinge to the party, we would draw more Democrats who don't want ubiquitous spending, but don't want government in their bodies or bedrooms.  And libertarians would be a far larger percent of the republican party than the country
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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kaz
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #13 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:45am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 11:05am:
This is the heart of the philosophy. Libertarians must have all the practical liberty... at the expense of everyone else's


More of your stupid, ignorant crap.  My liberty is not protected unless everyone's is protected.  That's what libertarians believe
  

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The Opposition
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #14 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:55am
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kaz wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:45am:
More of your stupid, ignorant crap.  My liberty is not protected unless everyone's is protected.  That's what libertarians believe


You wouldn't have to pretend there aren't choices if you were for everyone's liberty equally.

If you were for everyone's liberty equally, there wouldn't be a single working productive person who'd gain nothing from libertarianism being implemented.

People may say that all can benefit, but life, and this forum, have taught me otherwise. In reality, for someone to win, someone else must lose.

Again, on every issue I must make a sacrifice so someone else can make a gain. You've made unassailable cases for each, but that is the result.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #15 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 10:00am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:55am:
You wouldn't have to pretend there aren't choices if you were for everyone's liberty equally.

If you were for everyone's liberty equally, there wouldn't be a single working productive person who'd gain nothing from libertarianism being implemented.

People may say that all can benefit, but life, and this forum, have taught me otherwise. In reality, for someone to win, someone else must lose.

Again, on every issue I must make a sacrifice so someone else can make a gain. You've made unassailable cases for each, but that is the result.


You always go on with that flowery bull shit, but when it comes to naming anything that is different for me than anyone else, you can't do it
  

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SkyChief
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #16 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 11:57am
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kaz wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:42am:
A socialist trolling the board and being against taxes is good?  Sure it is.

And I'm not sure why you brought up income taxes.  I'm assuming you have long term memory and remember we've always agreed on eliminating income taxes.

My point is about your statement of eliminating taxes, which means no military, no police, no courts, no property recognition, no management of limited resources.  Just our being terrorized by criminals until we are conquered by foreign powers and forced into slavery.  That's the part you advocate I don't get

I believe a National Sales Tax could provide ample funding for essential government functions.

kaz wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:42am:
  It's not just the number of libertarians.

Right -  it's the number of Independents. 

Independents outnumber democrats AND republicans.

And with partisan politics getting dirtier and dirtier,  The ranks of independents are growing.

https://www.people-press.org/2019/03/14/political-independents-who-they-are-what...

It was the independents who put Trump into office.    Not because they liked Trump - but because they despised crooked Hillary.

kaz wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:42am:
But if you took Republicans and added a libertarian tinge to the party, we would draw more Democrats who don't want ubiquitous spending, but don't want government in their bodies or bedrooms.  And libertarians would be a far larger percent of the republican party than the country
Many libertarians want to distance ourselves from both Parties.  I just don't see any coalition with libertarians and republicans happening.

If you're looking to cajole a political group, go after the independents.  Wink
  
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The Opposition
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #17 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:13pm
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kaz wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 10:00am:
You always go on with that flowery bull shit, but when it comes to naming anything that is different for me than anyone else, you can't do it


No, I agree that you support equality, in theory.

So does someone who looks at his mountain of gold, declares that gold is property and cannot be stolen, then looks at his neighbour's silver and declares what a silly person someone would be to think the same of silver as gold.

You want equal rights.

But you want a subdivision every time that equality would grant a benefit to someone else.

Your cases will be unassailable for each subdivision, but the result will always be the maximum benefit to you, and the maximum detriment to others.

I cannot think of a system that would cause me more detriments than libertarianism.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #18 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:21pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:13pm:
No, I agree that you support equality, in theory.

So does someone who looks at his mountain of gold, declares that gold is property and cannot be stolen, then looks at his neighbour's silver and declares what a silly person someone would be to think the same of silver as gold.

You want equal rights.

But you want a subdivision every time that equality would grant a benefit to someone else.

Your cases will be unassailable for each subdivision, but the result will always be the maximum benefit to you, and the maximum detriment to others.

I cannot think of a system that would cause me more detriments than libertarianism.


So now rather than no example at all, you have a completely contrived one, which is no different than no example.  Obviously gold and sliver are the same regarding libertarian rules.

Name real examples
  

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kaz
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #19 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:23pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 11:57am:
I believe a National Sales Tax could provide ample funding for essential government functions


Which we've agreed on many times.  Again, you're going to something we agree on to clarify what exactly?

What we disagree on is you keep saying no taxes



SkyChief wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 11:57am:
Right -  it's the number of Independents. 

Independents outnumber democrats AND republicans.

And with partisan politics getting dirtier and dirtier,  The ranks of independents are growing.

https://www.people-press.org/2019/03/14/political-independents-who-they-are-what...

It was the independents who put Trump into office.    Not because they liked Trump - but because they despised crooked Hillary.

Many libertarians want to distance ourselves from both Parties.  I just don't see any coalition with libertarians and republicans happening.

If you're looking to cajole a political group, go after the independents.  Wink


I wouldn't say I'm trying to cajole libertarians because it's not feasible.  I'm just pointing out the propensity for libertarians to stare at their navels rather than affect the actual liberty in their lives
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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