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The Opposition
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #20 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:26pm
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kaz wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:21pm:
So now rather than no example at all, you have a completely contrived one, which is no different than no example.  Obviously gold and sliver are the same regarding libertarian rules.

Name real examples


I did. You ignored them. I named six.

And again, I have no problems with any of your arguments or any of anyone else's arguments; they are all perfect.

It's just that the result is always that I must sacrifice so someone else can benefit.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #21 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:30pm
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kaz wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:23pm:
I wouldn't say I'm trying to cajole libertarians because it's not feasible.  I'm just pointing out the propensity for libertarians to stare at their navels rather than affect the actual liberty in their lives

Grin    Grin    Grin   

Navel-gazing is all we can do.   We try to get people to embrace libertarian ideology, but they usually just call us selfish, turn up their noses, and walk away.  Embarrassed
  
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kaz
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #22 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:32pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:26pm:
I did. You ignored them. I named six


1. Yes, I must be mandated to buy car insurance. (neutral to me)
2. ...But price controls are unlibertarian! (minus to me, since I'll be paying more - the government controls prices now)
3. Can't have an animal that risks or is a nuisance to others. (minus to me)
4. ...But dogs can bark all day and all night. (minus to me)
5. I can't call the police, who are an aggressive instrument of the aggressive State, and also, this is me knowingly utilising both my stolen money, and the stolen money of others, so it's theft. (minus to me)
6. Can't use self-defence to protect my property if it endangers a life. (minus to me)

1.  Is a lie, you're not required to buy insurance
2.  Not an example, just 50K feet.  Nothing specific what you're talking to
3.  Not an example, just 50K feet.  Nothing specific what you're talking to. I know your talking about your endless debates with Jeff, but I don't read them, so you're going to need to make your case
4.  It's a lie.  A barking dog is infringing on my liberty
5.  It's a lie.  Call the police
6.  It's a lie.  Shoot them.

So you have 2 hand waiving non specific points and four lies.

You have no actual examples.

And none of the points you even tried to make contain any different rules between me and you, which was the question.

You didn't give 6, you gave zero
  

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kaz
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #23 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:11pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 11:05am:
Ideal liberty might not be a zero-sum game, but practical liberty is. If you want freedom from noise, someone else must sacrifice the freedom to make noise


Bull shit.  You have negative rights, not positive rights

The Opposition wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 11:05am:
Statists acknowledge that fact, and they want everyone to live in non-deal, square-shaped rights-bubbles, each sacrificing some of their ideal rights around the corners so everyone can be equal under the law and live together.


Stop being a stupid ass.  A statist isn't someone who shuts up your dog.  Don't use your made up definitions with me if you want to have discussions.  Most people are not statists or anarchists.  Very few are either.

The Opposition wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 11:05am:
Libertarians are concerned only with increasing the size of their bubbles as big as possible, and screw everyone else who gets trampled. I have had nothing but support for this idea of what libertarians are.

http://i63.tinypic.com/w2d2lv.jpg


Our standard is we believe in negative rights, not positive rights.  Your barking dog argument is a fail.  That didn't expose any double standard.  We can't transgress on your negative rights, you can't transgress on our negative rights.  That is our standard.

You bringing up that you want positive rights doesn't contradict that
  

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SkyChief
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #24 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:58pm
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kaz wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:23pm:
Which we've agreed on many times.  Again, you're going to something we agree on to clarify what exactly?

What we disagree on is you keep saying no taxes
The Libertarian Party says NO TAXES:

"We are opposed to all government activity which consists of the forcible collection money or goods from citizens in violation of their individual rights. Specifically, we support the eventual repeal of all taxation."

I say NO INCOME TAXES.   

I don't agree with the LP position that ALL taxation must be repealed.  That's a very anarchist position, and not possible without devastating results.
  
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kaz
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #25 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:12pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:58pm:
The Libertarian Party says NO TAXES:

"We are opposed to all government activity which consists of the forcible collection money or goods from citizens in violation of their individual rights. Specifically, we support the eventual repeal of all taxation."

I say NO INCOME TAXES.   

I don't agree with the LP position that ALL taxation must be repealed.  That's a very anarchist position, and not possible without devastating results. 


OK, then it's resolved.  BTW, you say "no taxes" all the time.  I ONLY debate you when you say that.  I never debate you when you say no "income" taxes because I agree with you when you say that
  

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The Opposition
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #26 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:57pm
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kaz wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:11pm:
Our standard is we believe in negative rights, not positive rights.  Your barking dog argument is a fail.  That didn't expose any double standard. 


I never said you had any double standards. I said the result of your standards was always benefit to you, detriment to me.

I made no claim about ideal rights, negative or positive. I only made the claim that practical liberty is a zero-sum game.

If you want freedom from noise, someone else must sacrifice the freedom to make noise.

kaz wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:11pm:
We can't transgress on your negative rights, you can't transgress on our negative rights.  That is our standard.


Correct, but you would never grant me a negative right that did me any good in the real world.

Again, there is no system but libertarianism that is 100% detriment to me and 100% benefit to everyone else.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #27 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 3:21pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:57pm:
I never said you had any double standards. I said the result of your standards was always benefit to you, detriment to me.

I made no claim about ideal rights, negative or positive. I only made the claim that practical liberty is a zero-sum game.

If you want freedom from noise, someone else must sacrifice the freedom to make noise.


Positive rights are an oxymoron.  They by definition infringe on the rights of others.  Since you're trying to assert positive rights, you are the aggressor.

No libertarian is going to support your aggression by asserting positive rights.  Go whine somewhere else that you want to commit aggression


The Opposition wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:57pm:
Correct, but you would never grant me a negative right that did me any good in the real world


And again, no examples.  Your examples where you wanted positive rights are a different subject.  What negative rights are you trying to say you can't have?
  

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The Opposition
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #28 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 6:48pm
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kaz wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 3:21pm:
And again, no examples.  Your examples where you wanted positive rights are a different subject.  What negative rights are you trying to say you can't have?


Any. I am asserting that there does not exist a negative right you would grant me that would do me any practical good.

If you actually followed the rules of logic, it would be your burden to prove a thing existed if you say it does, and I say it doesn't.

Just out of curiosity, what positive rights do you think I want? I've never claimed any rights, and I've always agreed when others say I don't have rights, so I'm not sure where you're getting this.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #29 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:45pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 6:48pm:
Any. I am asserting that there does not exist a negative right you would grant me that would do me any practical good.

If you actually followed the rules of logic, it would be your burden to prove a thing existed if you say it does, and I say it doesn't.

Just out of curiosity, what positive rights do you think I want? I've never claimed any rights, and I've always agreed when others say I don't have rights, so I'm not sure where you're getting this.


You're just babbling.

I grant myself and you negative rights.  I grant neither you nor me positive rights.

Since I grant myself no positive rights, I cannot violate your negative rights.

You say that's not good enough, you want more rights.  Well, if you want more rights than the negative rights you already have, you want positive rights.

Positive rights are aggression, by definition.  So name the aggressions you want me to give you that you believe are legitimate.  I don't grant you any positive rights.  So the burden is on you.  What aggressions are you claiming you have the right to commit against other Americans?
  

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