Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 11 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) We tried voluntary taxes, Chief (Read 1372 times)
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 7988
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #30 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 8:32am
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 12:07pm:
Any time someone advocates eliminating taxes, that's a good thing


Even if they are a socialist trolling the board?  I don't care when someone says they support my cause, and I know they don't
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 42745
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #31 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 8:39am
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 10:08pm:
In your wettest dream.

Burns is not a big fan of taxation.     Neither am I.    No (real) libertarians are.


I have stated many times on this forum that as a minarchist, I will tolerate some forms of taxation.

Taxing incomes is oppressive and Marxist, and should not ever be tolerated in any civilized society.

That's MY position.  I'll let burns present his own views on taxation.
There are actually only two broad categories of taxes Chief, Direct taxes and Indirect taxes, and taxes on incomes fall into the Indirect category and are only required to be levied uniformly.

To me, that means that if corporate profits are to be taxed, they must be taxed at the same rate as is interest earned on investments or the profits derived from renting out your beach house.

Taxes on wages and salaries (which I think is really what you are objecting to) seem obviously to be Direct taxes, and therefore must be apportioned as all direct taxes must be.

From a legal Constitutional standpoint, it's not the form of a tax that's controlling, it's the substance and effect of the tax as it is levied and collected. It's an important point, because our current tax on wages and salaries has the form of an Indirect tax, but in substance and effect, it is Direct.

It amounts to legal fiction and chicanery to tax wages and salaries with a tax that has the form of an Indirect tax and claim that it is the form of the tax that controls it's constitutionality rather than it's substance and effect.

But of course since the Progressive Era and the remodeling of our Constitution by the "progressive" New Deal Supreme Court, our government has been all about legal fictions and chicanery. Cry
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10031
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #32 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 10:58am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 8:39am:
To me, that means that if corporate profits are to be taxed, they must be taxed at the same rate as is interest earned on investments or the profits derived from renting out your beach house.

Corporate profits should not be taxed at all.   We shouldn't have to hand over the money that we made renting out beach house.      That money belongs to US.

That was my point.

I understand that that taxing incomes is "legal".   I'm saying that that taxing incomes is wrong, and Marxist.

The Law should have been immediately repealed.

That it has stood for 106 years is astounding.

"Let me offer you my definition of social justice: I keep what I earn, and you keep what you earn. Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much of what I earn belongs to you - and why?" - Walter E. Williams
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 7988
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #33 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 11:04am
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 10:58am:
Corporate profits should not be taxed at all.   We shouldn't have to hand over the money that we made renting out beach house.      That money belongs to US.

That was my point.

I understand that that taxing incomes is "legal".   I'm saying that that taxing incomes is wrong, and Marxist.

The Law should have been immediately repealed.  '

That it has stood for 106 years is astounding.

"Let me offer you my definition of social justice: I keep what I earn, and you keep what you earn. Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much of what I earn belongs to you - and why?" - Walter E. Williams


Socialists are like wives.  What's theirs is theirs and what's mine is ours
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 42745
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #34 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:08pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 10:58am:
Corporate profits should not be taxed at all.   We shouldn't have to hand over the money that we made renting out beach house.      That money belongs to US.

If incomes from any and all sources were taxed uniformly as they are required to be, you would not have to give up much of the profit from your renting your beach house.

The only people I ever knew who owned and rented out a beach house plowed all the profits from renting it back into improving the property so they didn't have to pay taxes on it. When they retired, they stopped renting it out and lived in it for a few years, then sold it and rolled the money from the sale into a nice house on some nice property in the mountains. Smiley


"That money belongs to us" is just another way of saying all taxation is theft.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 42745
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #35 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:12pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 10:58am:
I understand that that taxing incomes is "legal".   I'm saying that that taxing incomes is wrong, and Marxist.

The Law should have been immediately repealed.

It's the original Constitution that grants the power of taxing incomes or any other subject that Congress chooses, with the limit that Indirect taxes must be uniform so as to avoid Congress taxing the crap out of your rental property profit and giving Boeing a break.

Al the 16th A. did was rectify the idiot bad decision SCOTUS made in the Pollock case.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 42745
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #36 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:13pm
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 11:04am:
Socialists are like wives.  What's theirs is theirs and what's mine is ours
So you got a bad wife... Don't extend your own experience to all wives.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10031
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #37 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:29pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:12pm:
It's the original Constitution that grants the power of taxing incomes or any other subject that Congress chooses..

Right.  Libertarians want this changed. 

This isn't the first time that the Constitution failed to properly limit the powers of government.

In 1920, the Constitution gave government the power to arrest and imprison people for selling a farking beer! 

Anheuser Busch refitted their brewery to make ice cream, and Coors began production of pottery and ceramics. 

What a stupid law.   Thankfully, it got repealed.

The 16th Amendment is equally stupid - it grants the government the power to tax a productive person's wealth, and then redistribute that wealth to non-productive people.   

Holy cow,   it can't get much dumber than that!

Amendment XVI should be amended to read:

The Congress shall NOT have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived,  salaries, wages, interest, dividends, stipends, or any other monies obtained by legal means.    

It would instantly abolish the IRS.

Think of the parties and celebrations!   Smiley    Smiley    Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 42745
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #38 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:57pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:29pm:
Right.  Libertarians want this changed. 

Let's just try using the limits again, and see how that works out...

My thought is that if the Constitution is amended to say "Taxation of incomes is forbidden", the IRS will suddenly realize that wages and salaries are not "income" and all the burden of taxation will fall directly on working people.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10031
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Reply #39 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 4:47pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:57pm:
Let's just try using the limits again, and see how that works out...

Limitations no longer work because progressives will make exceptions and re-interpret a limitation of power as a grant of power.

Government Power(s) must be taken away and the language needs to be very clear and unambiguous.

Powers need to be returned to The States and The People.

Jeff wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:57pm:
My thought is that if the Constitution is amended to say "Taxation of incomes is forbidden", the IRS will suddenly realize that wages and salaries are not "income" and all the burden of taxation will fall directly on working people.

If the 16th were amended to read:

The Congress shall NOT have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived,  salaries, wages, interest, dividends, stipends, or any other monies obtained by legal means.   

That's pretty clear that the IRS has no reason to exist.  They will simply need to find work elsewhere.

Individual States may, or may not decide to tax incomes.  But no Federal income taxes.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 11
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › We tried voluntary taxes, Chief
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy