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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer? (Read 2805 times)
Little Big Man
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Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Apr 11th, 2019 at 5:29pm
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I understand that question sounds like asking whether ethical vegetarians would rather eat pork or beef.  But I believe that there is actually a large difference between the two ways of making sure everyone has at least enough money on which to live. 

I hate the idea of UBI least, because it requires the least government.  For every dollar given to a welfare dolee, tens, if not hundreds are spent on the administrative costs of welfare programs.  Processing applications, chasing down fraud, building homes, are all expensive to staff with government workers.  Computers can mail out monthly checks to the poor or better yet, deposit the money into bank accounts, and the poor can certainly figure out how to live on them.

Say the checks were one thousand five hundred dollar per month.  That’s less than the amount in benefits a typical dolee gets now and it would cost way less to administers the program.  But can people live on that?  That’s where the free market comes in.

Given large numbers of people losing government housing and food stamps, but gaining a shot of cash each month, private companies would specialize in proving food, clothing and shelter to the dolees in exchange for the government cash.  They would likely be dormitory style group homes, but who knows?  The money will go to the businesses that provide the most desireable living conditions so dolees will experience the benefits of competition also. 

People not wanting to live in group homes could join forces to double or triple up and pool their UBI to live on forty-five hundred. 
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #1 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 9:48pm
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Beef, hands-down. Grass-fed beef actually represents less sentient lives lost per calorie even than vegan diets.

Why? More mice died under the plough for your dinner of lettuce and corn (2-5) than cows for my huge steak (let's say I eat myself half to death: .1).

I predict libertarians will select welfare over UBI because libertarians like complex, grey systems the cleverest can exploit. But if you give it to everyone, you it's no longer an advantage.

It saddens me but I think most people pick libertarianism over other political philosophies so they can exploit the grey areas of the NAP and gain advantage.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #2 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 10:44pm
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Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?

For the record,   NEITHER.

That's not government's job.

Government's job is to preserve and protect the blessings of liberty, and protect citizens from invasion of those who endeavor to deprive us of those liberties.

Both Welfare and Universal Basic Income are progressive/socialist constructs.

They should be (and usually ARE) shunned by conscientious Americans.

Progressives and Socialists should be sent to an isolated island where they can safely annihilate each other.

Good riddence!   Grin
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #3 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:09am
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 10:44pm:
Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?

For the record,   NEITHER.

That's not government's job.

Government's job is to preserve and protect the blessings of liberty, and protect citizens from invasion of those who endeavor to deprive us of those liberties.

Both Welfare and Universal Basic Income are progressive/socialist constructs.

They should be (and usually ARE) shunned by conscientious Americans.

Progressives and Socialists should be sent to an isolated island where they can safely annihilate each other.

Good riddence!   Grin


Right you are chief.  NEITHER is the best option.

But “gun to your head” you have to pick one, which would it be?

I’m not sure why I put gun to your head in quotes, since that is how either idea would have to be paid for.
  

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kaz
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #4 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:29am
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:09am:
Right you are chief.  NEITHER is the best option.

But “gun to your head” you have to pick one, which would it be?

I’m not sure why I put gun to your head in quotes, since that is how either idea would have to be paid for.


Chief has answered that question over and over.  UBI would be more money redistributed.  That is why it's worse. 

I agree with Ahhell that ... if ... we were to take our current welfare and redistribute it to everyone without rules, UBI would be better than our current welfare rules for the reason he said.  Less government to decide.

But his argument that it's fine to redistribute 10 times as much because redistribution is binary is whacked.

And since you're a troll who word parses and has no long term memory, I'm against all redistribution
  

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kaz
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #5 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:31am
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 5:29pm:
I understand that question sounds like asking whether ethical vegetarians would rather eat pork or beef.  But I believe that there is actually a large difference between the two ways of making sure everyone has at least enough money on which to live. 

I hate the idea of UBI least, because it requires the least government.  For every dollar given to a welfare dolee, tens, if not hundreds are spent on the administrative costs of welfare programs.  Processing applications, chasing down fraud, building homes, are all expensive to staff with government workers.  Computers can mail out monthly checks to the poor or better yet, deposit the money into bank accounts, and the poor can certainly figure out how to live on them.

Say the checks were one thousand five hundred dollar per month.  That’s less than the amount in benefits a typical dolee gets now and it would cost way less to administers the program.  But can people live on that?  That’s where the free market comes in.

Given large numbers of people losing government housing and food stamps, but gaining a shot of cash each month, private companies would specialize in proving food, clothing and shelter to the dolees in exchange for the government cash.  They would likely be dormitory style group homes, but who knows?  The money will go to the businesses that provide the most desireable living conditions so dolees will experience the benefits of competition also. 

People not wanting to live in group homes could join forces to double or triple up and pool their UBI to live on forty-five hundred. 


The reality is because we are now a democracy that they would say it's not enough and vote themselves more of other people's money.

Since you're a socialist in real life, Don, you have no problem with that
  

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ahhell
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #6 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 10:44am
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kaz wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:29am:
But his argument that it's fine to redistribute 10 times as much because redistribution is binary is whacked.
That is not an argument I made. Even at 3.9 trillion it would still not be 10x what the US currently spends on social welfare. 


UBI over traditional welfare.  Less paternalistic, less burueacracy, likely to be more effective at alleviating poverty. 


@skychief,

Good luck putting all of those progressives on an island.  I think you would find the only one big enough would be Eurasia.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #7 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 11:14am
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kaz wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:29am:
Chief has answered that question over and over.  UBI would be more money redistributed.  That is why it's worse. 


Agreed. (See how, when you mop the debate floor with me, I learn?)
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Big Man
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #8 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 12:11pm
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kaz wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:29am:
Chief has answered that question over and over.  UBI would be more money redistributed.  That is why it's worse. 


Thanks for letting me know.  I’m glad you have the time to read every single post and keep careful records of who said what. 

Quote:
I agree with Ahhell that ... if ... we were to take our current welfare and redistribute it to everyone without rules, UBI would be better than our current welfare rules for the reason he said.  Less government to decide.


Then I agree with you and Ahhell.

Quote:
But his argument that it's fine to redistribute 10 times as much because redistribution is binary is whacked.


I believe that UBI would lead to less redistribution, not more.

Quote:
And since you're a troll who word parses and has no long term memory, I'm against all redistribution


No, you are not.  You believe that wealth should be taken from landowners and renters in the form of property tax and redistributed in the form of public education.  You believe that wealth should be taken in the form of sales tax and redistributed in the form of police “protection.” 


  

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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #9 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 12:18pm
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ahhell wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 10:44am:
@skychief,

Good luck putting all of those progressives on an island.  I think you would find the only one big enough would be Eurasia. 

I've heard there's lots or room on Greenland.  Bundle up, though, it can get chilly in the winter!
  
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