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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer? (Read 301 times)
kaz
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #10 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:47am
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 12:11pm:
Thanks for letting me know.  I’m glad you have the time to read every single post and keep careful records of who said what.


LOL.  It makes sense you can't keep things straight in your mind because you're an old coot.  What's funny is you attack people as if your senility is a good thing.

burnsred:  You REMEMBER things, kaz?  OMG, that is so pathetic!  You should be losing your memory and your marbles, like I am!  I don't remember that stuff, I'd have to write it down.  What is wrong with you!

Sure, Don, sure.  I feel so embarrassed that I remember things and you can't.  You nailed me

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
  

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kaz
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #11 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:50am
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ahhell wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 10:44am:
That is not an argument I made. Even at 3.9 trillion it would still not be 10x what the US currently spends on social welfare


Fair enough.  We did the math and it turned out to be 6 times, not ten.  Of course that's before people realize how little they are getting and decide to increase it
  

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kaz
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #12 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:51am
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 12:11pm:
I believe that UBI would lead to less redistribution, not more


According to Ahhell's numbers it will grow welfare 6 times what we pay now.  What are your numbers that get that down below what we pay now?  Are you going to start killing people?  What?
  

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kaz
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #13 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:53am
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 12:11pm:
No, you are not.  You believe that wealth should be taken from landowners and renters in the form of property tax and redistributed in the form of public education.  You believe that wealth should be taken in the form of sales tax and redistributed in the form of police “protection.” 




That's Jeff, you senile old doddering idiot.  You've had endless arguments with him about it.  You can't even remember that?  Maybe it's time to pull the plug.

I am strongly against property taxes, as much as income taxes.  I keep saying they make government the owner of all property and citizens only renters.

I also oppose government schools.  I attack you for supporting them all the time.

You're such a complete and utter fvcking moron
  

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ahhell
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #14 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 11:07am
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kaz wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:51am:
According to Ahhell's numbers it will grow welfare 6 times what we pay now.  What are your numbers that get that down below what we pay now?  Are you going to start killing people?  What?

How to figure 6x, that isn't my math, its yours. 

I'll pretend its accurate.  Then reduce the UBI to to be the equivalent of the current system and get rid of the current system and you will have a better system.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #15 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 11:13am
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ahhell wrote on Apr 15th, 2019 at 11:07am:
How to figure 6x, that isn't my math, its yours. 

I'll pretend its accurate.  Then reduce the UBI to to be the equivalent of the current system and get rid of the current system and you will have a better system. 


Fairer, not better. Better means as few people benefiting from it as possible, not everyone receiving the same benefit.

If you give everyone money, money becomes worthless. Even if you give them "enough" then inflation will take care of that, and if the government raises it, inflation will take care of it again.

You can help some, not all, and it's better to help those who can game the system. They deserve it more. They have the one virtue in a libertarian society: Cleverness and the willingness and ability to exploit others.

And when the economy springs up to serve them, clean their houses, babysit their kids, it'll be genuine. Why would anyone do that if they could just get their own UBI?

Clearly, welfare is more libertarian than UBI.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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AlayneLeung
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Universal Basic Income is more cost efficient means to support persons
Reply #16 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 11:50am
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because Universal Basic Income implies that all hubeings and all extraterrestrial beings are worthwhile entities.  While the Preamble of the Constitution of the United States says "secure the blessings of liberty" and also "promote the general welfare", the problem with welfare is that welfare usually doesn't always provide a safety net for hubeings especially in the United States of America given requirements to keep welfare and also given bureaucraticnesses of complicated big government welfare policies; and so that's why I prefer Universal Basic Income of either $100k to every hubeing and every extratrerrestrial being on her or his birthday every year, or portion(s) of said $100k paid to every person monthly like say for example $1500 every month to every hubeing and to every extraterrestrial being in exchange for every hubeing and every extraterrestrial being getting mentally or spiritually or physically or emotionally or environmentally or residentially or politically or legally or recreationally or occupationally improved reasonably ethically morally justly good faith effortsly.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #17 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 8:01am
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ahhell wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 10:44am:
UBI over traditional welfare.  Less paternalistic, less burueacracy, likely to be more effective at alleviating poverty. 
I expect a UBI would be effective at spreading poverty more equally, but, show me a real plan. Without knowing what exactly is planned, there is no way to even half way realistically evaluate a UBI program. Giving a few selected people X amount of money/month and discovering that it makes them happier isn't actually a test of UBI.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Universal Basic Income is more cost efficient means to support persons
Reply #18 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 8:08am
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AlayneLeung wrote on Apr 15th, 2019 at 11:50am:
because Universal Basic Income implies that all hubeings and all extraterrestrial beings are worthwhile entities.  While the Preamble of the Constitution of the United States says "secure the blessings of liberty" and also "promote the general welfare"...
Please explain the meaning of the word "general" when used in the context of the preamble. Thanks.

Does taking money from productive you and giving it to unproductive me make things generally better for both of us? I say no. It harms you and helps me. Does taking from half the population and giving to the other half make everyone better off? Again I say no. It reduces the total economic output of the nation, which does not make everyone better off, but instead makes everyone worse off.

Providing for the defense of the entire nation will provide a general benefit. Having a standardized system of weights and measures will contribute to the general welfare. So will having sound money that is easily recognized and of known standard value (especially if it doesn't constantly lose value). A system of laws and courts that are available to everyone will promote the general welfare. Subsidizing the Tesla Motor Company will not.

Do you see the meaning of "general" as it is used in the preamble?
  
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kaz
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #19 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 9:21am
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ahhell wrote on Apr 15th, 2019 at 11:07am:
How to figure 6x, that isn't my math, its yours. 

I'll pretend its accurate.  Then reduce the UBI to to be the equivalent of the current system and get rid of the current system and you will have a better system. 


I didn't say it was your "math," I said it was your "number."  You used the $3.9 Trillion number.  I used basic ordinary math.

OK, I googled "how much welfare does the US government pay" and used the number it gave me.  That one wasn't your number.  But the $3.9 trillion was.

And there's no way they are going to redistribute what we spend on welfare now no matter what number you use.  It's going to go up, dramatically.  But I'll address that in the other thread
  

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