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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer? (Read 1522 times)
Jeff
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #70 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 4:04pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:58pm:
Yes, you have repeated that many times.  In fact your only argument is repetition...  You have  Never explained how taxes  (The forceful taking of a person’s property) are not theft (The forceful taking of a person’s property).

Just saying WTTE of, “It isn’t theft if government does it,” is no argument at all.
I recommended that you read Robert Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia
for some insights about how a government can be legitimate, and how a legitimately created government can be granted the power to tax so as to accomplish the purposes it's given to fulfill.

I've also mentioned that theft is an illegal taking, and legal taxation is, well, legal.

Your only "argument" is "taxes are theft" and "no government can ever be legitimate".

Fine.

Do you know what went wrong in France after their revolution?
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #71 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 4:20pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 4:04pm:
I recommended that you read Robert Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia
for some insights about how a government can be legitimate, and how a legitimately created government can be granted the power to tax so as to accomplish the purposes it's given to fulfill.


You didn’t read. It yourself, or you would be Quoting (or Plagiarizing) the arguments that it makes.

Quote:
I've also mentioned that theft is an illegal taking, and legal taxation is, well, legal.
It’s still theft. 

Quote:
Your only "argument" is "taxes are theft" and "no government can ever be legitimate".


I just started a thread in which I said that HOAs are legitimate.

Quote:
Fine.

Do you know what went wrong in France after their revolution?


Yes, they tried a republican form of government with taxes levied by an elected body and the power to collect them at gun point.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #72 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:26pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 4:20pm:
You didn’t read. It yourself, or you would be Quoting (or Plagiarizing) the arguments that it makes.
I did, and I used some of Nozick's arguments in discussions on this forum, with attribution. I didn't claim them as my own ideas.

Obviously you never read the book or my comments about it. Too bad.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #73 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:28pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 4:20pm:
I just started a thread in which I said that HOAs are legitimate.
I replied to it. They are illegitimate tyrannies that wouldn't let the lizard own a tiger.
If they didn't have a rule banning tigers before the lizard brought one into the neighborhood, they soon would.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #74 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:29pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 4:20pm:
Yes, they tried a republican form of government with taxes levied by an elected body and the power to collect them at gun point.
In some alternate world?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #75 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 9:55pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 1:19pm:
Not to sound like a wise guy teacher but if your sentence replaced the word “less” with the word “fewer,” it would be factually correct.

However, I would argue that if you really meant “less,” it is factually inaccurate.

My argument is that cows and pigs are more sentient than fish and chickens so it is more unethical to eat beef and pork than fish and chicken.  My thought is that cows not only feel the pain of their deaths, they also experience fear and sadness.  Fish feel pain but do they care?  No, because they lack the brain that allows more senient creatures to feel sadness.  (If I’m misusing the word “sentient” here, let me know the correct term).

I seem to be the only one who thinks that way.  Yet many people who eat bacon cheeseburgers would say it is wrong to eat monkeys or whales since they are so smart.  I agree with that, and I apply it to deer, sheep, etc.


I don't buy the less-fewer thing.

First, read the following inequality aloud:

3 < 10

Second, chickens are smart and cows are stone stupid.





Little Big Man wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 1:19pm:
Fish feel pain but do they care?  No, because they lack the brain that allows more sentient creatures to feel sadness.  (If I’m misusing the word “sentient” here, let me know the correct term).


That's exactly the way I intended it but fish are uncomfortably close to that line, even if they're below it. Some fish are somewhat intelligent.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160624100245.htm
Quote:
In addition, the fish demonstrated a previously unexpected ability: Their brain gave more weight to the information it thought was more reliable. When the two senses delivered different information in the close range of up to two centimeters, the fish trusted only the electrical information and were then "blind" to the visual stimuli.


If someone proves they can think about the future, that kind of opens the whole emotional floodgate to all the ones we reserve for more sentient species.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #76 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 7:53am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 9:55pm:
If someone proves they can think about the future, that kind of opens the whole emotional floodgate to all the ones we reserve for more sentient species.
"Emotional floodgates"?

You think that the natural rights of humans should be assigned to non-humans based on feelings?

How did this discussion get so far away from "Welfare v. UBI, Which is Worse"?
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #77 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 8:49am
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Jeff wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 7:53am:
"Emotional floodgates"?

You think that the natural rights of humans should be assigned to non-humans based on feelings?

How did this discussion get so far away from "Welfare v. UBI, Which is Worse"?


How can you ask that without exploding in hypocrisy?

You try to derail every thread you respond to, that is when you’re not just reponding to the subject line without reading the body.  You turn every single discussion of right and wrong into constitutional or unconstitutional and you get that wrong ninety percent of the time.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #78 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:17am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 9:55pm:
I don't buy the less-fewer thing.

First, read the following inequality aloud:

3 < 1.


I like the way you’re thinking, there.  Yes, in math we say “three is less than one.”  But we would say “a Volkswagen holds less gas than a Dodge Ram,” but we would also say, “a Volkswagen holds fewer gallons of gas than a Dodge Ram.” 

The reason 3<1 is pronounced “three is less than one,” is that in math we know that there are an infinite number of numbers, both rational and irrational, that are less than three but greater than zero.  If we were describing sets of distinct objects, fewer would be the correct term.

Three cows are fewer sentient beings than seven worms, but worms are less sentient beings than cows.

I’m more aware of this distinction than most because it comes up when I teach English to native speakers of Spanish.  In Spanish it’s “menos” for either situation so they have to explicitly instructed in the difference.

IIRC, you are from the UK or Canada or some other place where they speak “the Queen’s English” instead of “Uncle Sam’s American,” so it may be different for you. 

If so, cheers!

  

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The Opposition
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #79 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:46am
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 8:49am:
How can you ask that without exploding in hypocrisy?


Because libertarians believe in the NAP, not consistency.

1. Derailing everyone else's threads? Not wrong.

2. Immediately crying to the mod when own thread is derailed? Also not wrong.

1 and 2 aren't even wrong together.

3. Insulting to win every argument (which is technically committing an informal fallacy called ad hominem)? Not wrong.

4. Immediately declaring victory when anyone else commits an informal fallacy? Not wrong.

3 and 4 aren't even wrong in tandem.

5. Insisting that the government is wrong every time they do something they don't like, because you have rights? Not wrong.

6. Benefitting from government aggression when it suits you? Also not wrong.

7. Advocating government aggression when it benefits you? Still not aggression. Advocacy (of anything) is not aggression.

Put 5, 6, and 7 together and you get a libertarian.

Face it: If you want consistent standards and the rules to be the same for everyone, you are not a libertarian.

90% of the world runs on the honour system, and libertarians will break every one of those rules to get ahead while everyone else struggles to make up for their shortfall because they depend on the collective benefits of the honour system to survive. (So do libertarians but they know they can cheat as long as everyone else plays fair.) Libertarians will call it right because they're not committing aggression. They really don't care, as long as they win.

Debate isn't the only example where deliberately ruining a resource that isn't property and which everyone depends upon gains one a great advantage.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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