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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer? (Read 2715 times)
Jeff
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #80 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 10:46am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:46am:
Because libertarians believe in the NAP, not consistency.

Libertarians pretty consistently oppose the transfer of wealth by governments. I do too.

Most libertarians think limited government and limited taxation are essential. I do too.

Constitutional issues are very important to all of these things. If our government and it's taxing power are unlimited, liberty will cease to exist in America, and most libertarians value individual liberty very highly. So do I.

Most libertarians think initiating aggression is wrong. So do I. But the NAP is not the foundation of liberal/libertarian philosophy, it's just one good principle. Smiley
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #81 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 11:50am
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Jeff wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 10:46am:
Most libertarians think limited government and limited taxation are essential.
  citation needed.

It would be surprising to learn that most libertarians disagree with the Libertarian Party stance on taxation:

"Since we believe that every man is entitled to keep the fruits of his labor, we are opposed to all government activity which consists of the forcible collection money or goods from citizens in violation of their individual rights. Specifically, we support the eventual repeal of ALL taxation."
  
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Jeff
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #82 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 5:34pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 11:50am:
  citation needed.

You are welcome to believe that most libertarians are anarchists, but I will need a citation before I will believe it... Cheesy
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #83 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 7:59pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 5:34pm:
You are welcome to believe that most libertarians are anarchists, but I will need a citation before I will believe it... Cheesy

I didn't make the claim, Jeff - YOU did.   I don't think your claim is true, because that would mean that most libertarians disagree with the Libertarian Party's zero taxation objective

So I asked you to provide some citation to back up your claim: 

"Most libertarians think limited government and limited taxation are essential."

I just want to know why you made the statement.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #84 - May 1st, 2019 at 6:56am
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 7:59pm:
I didn't make the claim, Jeff - YOU did.   I don't think your claim is true, because that would mean that most libertarians disagree with the Libertarian Party's zero taxation objective

So I asked you to provide some citation to back up your claim: 

"Most libertarians think limited government and limited taxation are essential."

I just want to know why you made the statement.
Because it's true.

I don't even think most LP members (of which there aren't many) are anarchists.

The idea of anarchy just isn't very appealing to many people and never has been.

"No taxation" as an objective sounds seductive, especially to young "left" libertarians, who are probably the same people who think UBI sounds wonderful.

When I say "libertarians" Chief, I'm talking about a much larger group than just LP members and supporters, I'm talking about all people who value individual liberty and recognize that limited government and limited taxation are  necessary to protect individual liberty.
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #85 - May 1st, 2019 at 11:16am
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Jeff wrote on May 1st, 2019 at 6:56am:
"No taxation" as an objective sounds seductive, especially to young "left" libertarians, who are probably the same people who think UBI sounds wonderful.

To be clear,  anyone who thinks UBI sounds wonderful is NOT libertarian in any way shape or form- no matter how young they are.

UBI is only lipstick on the socialist pig.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #86 - May 1st, 2019 at 1:16pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 1st, 2019 at 11:16am:
To be clear,  anyone who thinks UBI sounds wonderful is NOT libertarian in any way shape or form- no matter how young they are.

UBI is only lipstick on the socialist pig. 
Taxation is the means that supports a government that protects your rights.

'Voluntarily funded government' is just lipstick on the anarchist pig.
  

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AlayneLeung
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #87 - May 1st, 2019 at 2:44pm
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The UBI is the $1M per person per year from a Powerball or Mega Millions Quick Pick (using the information I posted earlier as to why that would be legal).  I also prefer to allow a person to decide (to a minimum of $1k (unless minimum is zero) adjusting of $1M per person per year) that each person decide how much of said $1M she or he gets at time(s) during said year.  So basically a person could get (if she or he prefers) $135k in January, $1k in February, $203k in March, $0 in April, and during other times of that year, remaining amounts (each with $1k minium or $0 minimum adjustable amount).
  
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Jeff
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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #88 - May 1st, 2019 at 5:17pm
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AlayneLeung wrote on May 1st, 2019 at 2:44pm:
The UBI is the $1M per person per year from a Powerball or Mega Millions Quick Pick (using the information I posted earlier as to why that would be legal).  I also prefer to allow a person to decide (to a minimum of $1k (unless minimum is zero) adjusting of $1M per person per year) that each person decide how much of said $1M she or he gets at time(s) during said year.  So basically a person could get (if she or he prefers) $135k in January, $1k in February, $203k in March, $0 in April, and during other times of that year, remaining amounts (each with $1k minium or $0 minimum adjustable amount).
I want it al up front on New Years day.
  

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Re: Welfare or Universal Basic Income: Which do Libertarians Prefer?
Reply #89 - May 15th, 2019 at 7:49am
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 7:59pm:
I didn't make the claim, Jeff - YOU did.   I don't think your claim is true, because that would mean that most libertarians disagree with the Libertarian Party's zero taxation objective

So I asked you to provide some citation to back up your claim: 

"Most libertarians think limited government and limited taxation are essential."

I just want to know why you made the statement.


That most libertarians are anarchists is absurd, there's no need to prove that.  The Libertarian Party is mostly made up of non-anarchists as well.  Look at the Libertarian candidates.  Didn't only one minor candidate claim to be an anarchist in 2016?  I know you know the candidates better than I do.  Anarchists are a tiny fraction of the tiny fraction of Americans who are libertarian.

The Libertarian Party has it's head shoved up it's ass on immigration, the national ID, taxes and a variety of other issues, which is why I won't join the party even though I often vote for them.

Few hate government as much as I do after a career in management, management consulting and entrepreneurship.  But when it comes to the "there can be only one" issues (land ownership, military, police, courts, ...), I can't come up with a solution that doesn't restrict my liberty.  No anarchist has been able to explain how a system that is designed for competition (capitalism) can solve a problem where there can be no competition
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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