Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › The Associated Press
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Associated Press (Read 2623 times)
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 8777
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: The Associated Press
Reply #10 - Apr 20th, 2019 at 10:01am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:57am:
It's not about what the establishment thinks.

It's about what libertarianism, the philosophy, dictates.

Hacking servers is aggression.

If you think the NAP is too strict, or that following it is like a lemming following a blind man off a cliff, then make that case.

...And provide an alternative structure.


Tom and Jeff don't understand what NAP even is.  Note I've been pointing that out for a while now
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tommy Palven
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2034
Location: North America
Joined: Sep 27th, 2011
Re: The Associated Press
Reply #11 - Apr 20th, 2019 at 10:07am
Print Post  
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 8777
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: The Associated Press
Reply #12 - Apr 20th, 2019 at 10:21am
Print Post  
Tommy Palven wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 10:07am:


Great, you found it.  Now read it.

I like how you just admitted that neocons are following NAP since they are in your terms defending themselves.

You also justified redistribution of wealth since government is now simply correcting societal inequities which are aggression.

Your use of the term NAP makes it meaningless, all anyone has to do is spin anything as self defense and poof, it's allowed under NAP.

Of course that is as I pointed out, you're really just using it as a political weapon.  You allow any aggression you support and what you don't support is suddenly according to you a violation of NAP
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tommy Palven
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2034
Location: North America
Joined: Sep 27th, 2011
Re: The Associated Press
Reply #13 - Apr 20th, 2019 at 11:54am
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 10:21am:
Great, you found it.  Now read it.

I like how you just admitted that neocons are following NAP since they are in your terms defending themselves.


Horse shit.

They are defending their statist aggression which begins with taxation.  Taxation is involuntary and constitutes aggression by it's very nature.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 11733
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: The Associated Press
Reply #14 - Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:02pm
Print Post  
Tommy Palven wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 11:54am:
Horse shit.

They are defending their statist aggression which begins with taxation.  Taxation is involuntary and constitutes aggression by it's very nature.


That doesn't give you a blanket immunity to attack anyone, or violate property.

Find a good private court. Hire them. Take the State to court and have the State release those documents.

This is the libertarian solution.

https://mises.org/library/right-self-defense

Read. When you're defending against aggression, the threat must be palpable, immediate, and direct.

And your defence must be proportional.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 8777
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: The Associated Press
Reply #15 - Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:04pm
Print Post  
Tommy Palven wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 11:54am:
Horse shit.

They are defending their statist aggression which begins with taxation.  Taxation is involuntary and constitutes aggression by it's very nature.


Swish, and it flies over Tom's head ...

That's my point, hombre.  They are doing what you did.  Justifying aggression.  Neocon is not NAP.  Hacking servers is not NAP.  But you're OK with aggression when it serves you.  NAP is for you a political attack, not a principle you believe in
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 8777
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: The Associated Press
Reply #16 - Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:05pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
That doesn't give you a blanket immunity to attack anyone, or violate property.

Find a good private court. Hire them. Take the State to court and have the State release those documents.

This is the libertarian solution.

https://mises.org/library/right-self-defense

Read. When you're defending against aggression, the threat must be palpable, immediate, and direct.

And your defence must be proportional.


+1
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 49841
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: The Associated Press
Reply #17 - Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:48pm
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 9:59am:
And revenge is not self defense.  You know nothing about NAP.  You just justified everything the actual neocons do.  Bu-bu-bu terrorists.  It's self defense!

NAP does not allow you to hack someone because you believe they transgressed or you're defending yourself from a non-imminent threat.  NAP allows you to use violence to protect yourself from the act of aggression.  Not to get even later.  You don't even know what NAP is.  You really are pathetic
Our government is not just "someone".

I agree that hacking a private person or private company is aggression, because they have a right to privacy, but because we have a right to privacy, our government spying on us is a violation of our rights, and we also have a right to know that our government is violating our rights and when and how.

It's absurd to say that shining light on the illegal activities of our government is "revenge".
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tommy Palven
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2034
Location: North America
Joined: Sep 27th, 2011
Re: The Associated Press
Reply #18 - Apr 20th, 2019 at 2:50pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
That doesn't give you a blanket immunity to attack anyone, or violate property.

Find a good private court. Hire them. Take the State to court and have the State release those documents.

This is the libertarian solution.

https://mises.org/library/right-self-defense

Read. When you're defending against aggression, the threat must be palpable, immediate, and direct.

And your defence must be proportional.


Your statement is both a misinterpretation and immaterial.

Rothbard stated that "If every man has the absolute right to his justly-held property it then follows that he has the right to keep that property — to defend it by violence against violent invasion," and he added that "Defensive violence ...must be confined to resisting invasive actions."

The LP pledge is:
"I hereby certify that I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of force as a means of achieving political or social goals."

You and Kaz apparently agree with the vast majority of people who think it's fine for governments to initiate force to achieve political and/or social goals.

That's fine.  If you haven't accepted that LP position by now, I'm not going to argue with you guys about it a moment more.

I'm a Jacob Hornberger fan, and not a Hans Hoppe Libertarian Lite fan.  I don't think Hoppe's position is logically valid.

Period.  End of my part in this discussion.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 8777
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: The Associated Press
Reply #19 - Apr 20th, 2019 at 3:18pm
Print Post  
Tommy Palven wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 2:50pm:
Rothbard stated that "If every man has the absolute right to his justly-held property it then follows that he has the right to keep that property — to defend it by violence against violent invasion," and he added that "Defensive violence ...must be confined to resisting invasive actions."


Yes.  And clearly hacking servers violates that standard.  Yet you support it because you are a hypocrite

Tommy Palven wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 2:50pm:
Period.  End of my part in this discussion.


You correctly observe that this isn't going well for you.  That's because you are blind to your own hypocrisy.   Defending a double standard just leaves you open to what's happening to you now.

I didn't walk into that trap.  I admitted up front that I don't believe in NAP, not all the time.  There are cases like this where it's justified.  You want to have it both ways.  You are right when you claim you support NAP, you are right now when you ignore NAP.  And both times it's a political weapon for you.  Note you still attack me for my honesty that I don't always support NAP, that while you violate NAP

Tommy Palven wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 2:50pm:
You and Kaz apparently agree with the vast majority of people who think it's fine for governments to initiate force to achieve political and/or social goals


You still attack me for being honest up front even while you directly advocate violating NAP.  It takes a you to do that
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › The Associated Press
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy