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roycarn
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Libertarians and the "World Policeman"
Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:23pm
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If Libertarians are in favor of the government using force to police aggression within its boundaries, what is so un-libertarian about the United States using force to repel and deter aggression overseas? (note: I am not an interventionist, this has just been on my mind lately.)
  
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kaz
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Re: Libertarians and the "World Policeman"
Reply #1 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:42pm
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roycarn wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:23pm:
If Libertarians are in favor of the government using force to police aggression within its boundaries, what is so un-libertarian about the United States using force to repel and deter aggression overseas? (note: I am not an interventionist, this has just been on my mind lately.)


Fair question.  To get to the answer, you need to separate government from non-government.

If you're arguing non-government, then sure, we should try to help.  For example, lots of Americans volunteered to join the British military before we joined WWII.  A libertarian of good conscience would decide to intervene in what's right.

On the other hand, government should not compel us to intervene in foreign conflicts that are not directly in defense of the United States.  That is the difference.

Our government is the American government.  When we start intervening in foreign conflicts, government is confiscating resources from all Americans to serve only the interest of some of us.  Americans should do that with our personal resources by choice, not force.

Why shouldn't government confiscate money by force and support the American Heart Association?  It's a great cause, right?  Well, there are lots of other charities, and different people have different priorities.  So should government give our money to all "good" charities?

No.  Government should be small and protect the direct defense of the United States only.  Then we are free and have the resources to make our own decisions what causes to give our money.  Or, if we're committed, our lives to fight for another country
« Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2019 at 8:30am by kaz »  

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SkyChief
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Re: Libertarians and the "World Policeman"
Reply #2 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 12:30am
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roycarn wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:23pm:
If Libertarians are in favor of the government using force to police aggression within its boundaries, what is so un-libertarian about the United States using force to repel and deter aggression overseas?

Using force to repel and deter aggression overseas is patently un-libertarian: 

Libertarian Party Platform

"Our foreign policy should emphasize defense against attack from abroad and enhance the likelihood of peace by avoiding foreign entanglements.

We would end the current U.S. government policy of foreign intervention, including military and economic aid.

The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world."


https://www.lp.org/platform/


"i dont want any super powers the usa should not be the world police." - thermf5

"Let our affairs be disentangled from those of all other nations, except as to commerce" - Thomas Jefferson
  
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kaz
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Re: Libertarians and the "World Policeman"
Reply #3 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 8:26am
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 14th, 2019 at 12:30am:
Using force to repel and deter aggression overseas is patently un-libertarian: 

Libertarian Party Platform

"Our foreign policy should emphasize defense against attack from abroad and enhance the likelihood of peace by avoiding foreign entanglements.

We would end the current U.S. government policy of foreign intervention, including military and economic aid.

The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world."


https://www.lp.org/platform/


"i dont want any super powers the usa should not be the world police." - thermf5

"Let our affairs be disentangled from those of all other nations, except as to commerce" - Thomas Jefferson


He asked why that is the libertarian position.  All you did was repeat what he already knew, that it is the libertarian position
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Libertarians and the "World Policeman"
Reply #4 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 12:10pm
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kaz wrote on Apr 14th, 2019 at 8:26am:
He asked why that is the libertarian position.  All you did was repeat what he already knew, that it is the libertarian position

He's mixing apples and oranges.

"If Libertarians are in favor of the government using force to police aggression within its boundaries,"

Of course reasonable force by government within its boundaries is acceptable.

That holds true for every nation on the planet.

He continues:

"what is so un-libertarian about the United States using force to repel and deter aggression overseas?"

Aggression overseas is not any concern of the US unless it impedes Free Trade with the US. 

Policing the world is NOT the job of the US government.  They've taken the mantle of the Policemen of the World, but that's very wrong and very un-libertarian. 

I tried to make point clear in my initial response.   And I succeeded, I think.
  
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kaz
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Re: Libertarians and the "World Policeman"
Reply #5 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 12:37pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 14th, 2019 at 12:10pm:
He's mixing apples and oranges.

"If Libertarians are in favor of the government using force to police aggression within its boundaries,"

Of course reasonable force by government within its boundaries is acceptable.

That holds true for every nation on the planet.

He continues:

"what is so un-libertarian about the United States using force to repel and deter aggression overseas?"

Aggression overseas is not any concern of the US unless it impedes Free Trade with the US. 

Policing the world is NOT the job of the US government.  They've taken the mantle of the Policemen of the World, but that's very wrong and very un-libertarian. 

I tried to make point clear in my initial response.   And I succeeded, I think.


So you have:

Question:  Why is overseas not our concern?
Skychief: Overseas is not our concern

I still say that is repeating his statement, not answering his question.

I think the reason is our view is that government is a thin layer over the people to directly protect us so we are free to make our own choices, including fighting aggression overseas.  If someone is invading us, that is a threat to us all.  So we band together and defend ourselves under the organization of government.  Of course I'm referring to small government libertarians.  Anarchists will gladly die in this scenario.  Anarchy is a death pact.  They joyously lie down and die for their cause.  Small government libertarians, not so much.

If aggression is occurring overseas, then we are free to use our own resources and bodies as we choose.  If Americans overwhelmingly agree the overseas aggression needs to be stopped, we are free to join their military, donate money, whatever.  We have that choice. And if government wasn't sucking us dry like they do now, we'd have more means to support fighting the aggression we oppose.  To me you missed the whole crux of libertarian views.  You say we'd stay out.  No, we'd have our GOVERNMENT stay out.  We are free to personally intercede ... or not ...

So to his question, if the people are not willing to donate or fight, the government should not have done that in our name with our resources.  If we are behind it, we will fight the aggression anyway
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Libertarians and the "World Policeman"
Reply #6 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 12:55pm
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kaz wrote on Apr 14th, 2019 at 12:37pm:
If aggression is occurring overseas, then we are free to use our own resources and bodies as we choose.

To me you missed the whole crux of libertarian views.  You say we'd stay out.  No, we'd have our GOVERNMENT stay out.  We are free to personally intercede ... or not ...

I guess I misunderstood the OP's question.

I thought he was talking about government using force to to repel and deter aggression overseas - not individuals.

It's fine if an American wants to enlist in another country's military to fight aggression against that country.  Just don't do it on my behalf.   And don't use my dollars.   

Smiley
  
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kaz
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Re: Libertarians and the "World Policeman"
Reply #7 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 1:51pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 14th, 2019 at 12:55pm:
I guess I misunderstood the OP's question.

I thought he was talking about government using force to to repel and deter aggression overseas - not individuals.

It's fine if an American wants to enlist in another country's military to fight aggression against that country.  Just don't do it on my behalf.   And don't use my dollars.   

Smiley


Agreed.  And I didn't think you didn't think that.  I'm just saying that was the answer to his question.  We do NOT believe it's the job of government to do that, we believe it's up to individuals.  Government's job is to protect us and stop there.  That is the answer to his question
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Libertarians and the "World Policeman"
Reply #8 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 7:58pm
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roycarn wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:23pm:
If Libertarians are in favor of the government using force to police aggression within its boundaries, what is so un-libertarian about the United States using force to repel and deter aggression overseas? (note: I am not an interventionist, this has just been on my mind lately.)


I would flip your point and say, "If it is wrong for the U.S. government to intervene in the business of Europeans, Africans, Asians and Australians, isn't it at least as wrong for the U.S. government to intervene in the business of Americans?"

At least when our government kills some middle-easterners in a drone strike the relatives of the dead can turn to their own people to ask that they be defended.  When our government claims the right to kill - and does kill - Americans citizens, their relatives can do nothing but double check their income tax returns to make sure they are not targeted for not paying the taxes the U.S. government "needs" to buy more drones.

  
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kaz
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Re: Libertarians and the "World Policeman"
Reply #9 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 8:25pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 7:58pm:
I would flip your point and say, "If it is wrong for the U.S. government to intervene in the business of Europeans, Africans, Asians and Australians, isn't it at least as wrong for the U.S. government to intervene in the business of Americans?"

At least when our government kills some middle-easterners in a drone strike the relatives of the dead can turn to their own people to ask that they be defended.  When our government claims the right to kill - and does kill - Americans citizens, their relatives can do nothing but double check their income tax returns to make sure they are not targeted for not paying the taxes the U.S. government "needs" to buy more drones.





You're really upset about this one, aren't you?  This is going to take a whole day at the spa to work this one out, drama queen
  

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