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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Anyone Else Not Give a Shit About Notre Dame? (Read 1019 times)
BobK71
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Re: Anyone Else Not Give a Shit About Notre Dame?
Reply #20 - Apr 24th, 2019 at 2:25pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 18th, 2019 at 4:12pm:
Fine, you think the study of political economy is a religion.

OK, Marxist economics is a religion, because it's not based on facts or reality but rather on faith in things like "historical determinism" which is nonsensical dogma, but that doesn't make all economic theories into religions...


No economic theory can hope to be truly scientific, since they're dealing with humans and the messiness of human relationships and power structures.  (Though this doesn't stop attempts at portraying economics as a science, as part of promoting narratives in a systematic fashion...)

The best it can hope for is a coherent set of prescriptions and descriptions that say, if these rules are instituted and followed, these will happen.  This is religion/ideology/philosophy, or what have you, but not science.  (BTW, I believe that designating religion as supernatural, and the others not, is a semantic exercise only.)

Even this hasn't really been achieved.  The closest I can imagine is Adam Smith, but with an add-on about the commodity of money being totally free-market.  This would be the least tested of any theory, since most people don't begin to understand money, and holding their rules accountable for this last rule is going to be a challenge.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Anyone Else Not Give a Shit About Notre Dame?
Reply #21 - Apr 24th, 2019 at 3:04pm
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BobK71 wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 2:25pm:
No economic theory can hope to be truly scientific, since they're dealing with humans and the messiness of human relationships and power structures.
You can use scientific methods to study anything. Gathering empirical evidence, creating theories and measuring them against reality, things like that.

Smart people calling themselves economists have been doing it for a long time.

Here's a place where you can find lots of them, and not coincidentally, lots of good economic theories backed up by lots of empirical evidence.

https://www.cato.org/research/finance-banking-monetary-policy

BTW, It's pretty much impossible to gather empirical evidence in support of religious dogma or to test it against real world events.

Maybe the study of comparative religion comes close to science, if the methods of study used are scientific.

Edit: Here's an example of people studying monetary policy/law and drawing conclusions from evidence:

https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/research-brief-129-updated...

You say that's religion? Cheesy
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Anyone Else Not Give a Shit About Notre Dame?
Reply #22 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 3:45pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 3:04pm:
You can use scientific methods to study anything. Gathering empirical evidence, creating theories and measuring them against reality, things like that.


That’s exactly what research psychologists do.

Quote:
Smart people calling themselves economists have been doing it for a long time.

Here's a place where you can find lots of them, and not coincidentally, lots of good economic theories backed up by lots of empirical evidence.

https://www.cato.org/research/finance-banking-monetary-policy


Economics is basically a branch of psychology.

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BTW, It's pretty much impossible to gather empirical evidence in support of religious dogma or to test it against real world events.

D


That’s also true of Darwinian Evolutionary theory.


  

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Jeff
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Re: Anyone Else Not Give a Shit About Notre Dame?
Reply #23 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 4:14pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 26th, 2019 at 3:45pm:
Economics is basically a branch of psychology.
In your world?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Anyone Else Not Give a Shit About Notre Dame?
Reply #24 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 4:17pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Apr 26th, 2019 at 3:45pm:
That’s also true of Darwinian Evolutionary theory.
There are huge amounts of empirical evidence, and lots of physical evidence too, that verifies the idea of an ongoing evolution of living things.

That Darwin did not completely and accurately understand all the mechanisms at the onset is understandable. He was a pioneer.
  

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BobK71
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Re: Anyone Else Not Give a Shit About Notre Dame?
Reply #25 - May 2nd, 2019 at 12:11pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 3:04pm:
You can use scientific methods to study anything. Gathering empirical evidence, creating theories and measuring them against reality, things like that.

Smart people calling themselves economists have been doing it for a long time.

Here's a place where you can find lots of them, and not coincidentally, lots of good economic theories backed up by lots of empirical evidence.

https://www.cato.org/research/finance-banking-monetary-policy

BTW, It's pretty much impossible to gather empirical evidence in support of religious dogma or to test it against real world events.

Maybe the study of comparative religion comes close to science, if the methods of study used are scientific.

Edit: Here's an example of people studying monetary policy/law and drawing conclusions from evidence:

https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/research-brief-129-updated...

You say that's religion? Cheesy


I'm not saying economics is Christianity, but it's not physics either, and it doesn't matter if it uses more math and labs than physics.  If all those equations could arrive at one single, repeatedly testable set of truths, I would be a believer.

Economics is inherently prescriptive and subjective, and that takes it closer to ideology (or, if you like, religion, in my new-found categorization of things.)  Its prescriptions are subtle but firm: work with the basic established order (government freedom to incur debt, central banking, fiat money for the time being, etc.)  It is good.  And oh, BTW, when the elites wanted the gold standard, that was the established truth.

The fact of the matter is that economics is a business, dominated by a number of 'leading lights' who have every incentive to work with established powers.  Its special magic is to use data, science-like methods, and objective-looking-analysis to pass itself off as something above the fray.

Paul Krugman once told someone he thought was a close friend that he could touch anything but the money system.  You can probably still find his 'friend's' video expose online.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Anyone Else Not Give a Shit About Notre Dame?
Reply #26 - May 2nd, 2019 at 2:12pm
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BobK71 wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 12:11pm:
I'm not saying economics is Christianity, but it's not physics either, and it doesn't matter if it uses more math and labs than physics.
The study of anything that involves people is necessarily not a hard science, but physics these days isn't really very "hard" either... Much of quantum physics is rather amorphous.

Nevertheless, economics is a science.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Anyone Else Not Give a Shit About Notre Dame?
Reply #27 - May 2nd, 2019 at 2:14pm
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BobK71 wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 12:11pm:
Economics is inherently prescriptive and subjective
You must be talking about Keynesian economics.
  

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BobK71
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Re: Anyone Else Not Give a Shit About Notre Dame?
Reply #28 - May 2nd, 2019 at 5:00pm
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Jeff wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 2:12pm:
Nevertheless, economics is a science.


The real problem, in my mind, with economics is that it's trying to study a system that is built on a deceptive foundation, the money system.  This deceptiveness causes the entire system to be unstable and unknowable, unless you tackle the root problem by calling out the money system.

But then, you'd be rattling the cage for the most core source of power of the elites.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Anyone Else Not Give a Shit About Notre Dame?
Reply #29 - May 2nd, 2019 at 6:43pm
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BobK71 wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 5:00pm:
The real problem, in my mind, with economics is that it's trying to study a system that is built on a deceptive foundation, the money system.
People who study economics learn all about all sorts of economic distortions caused by government interference and fiat money.

Only the Keynesians (such as  Paul Krugman) like fiat money and government interference in economic matters.
  

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