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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful? (Read 2113 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #80 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:24pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 11:56am:
And what is is that we believe we are right about? 

That one shouldn't hurt people nor take their stuff.


Which is a nice standard until people hurt you and take your stuff, who are invariably libertarians.

Libertarians believe my neighbour has every right to have a dog that bites me, but I'm not allowed to have a chicken because that risks others.

No one has ever tried to hurt me or take my stuff who wasn't a libertarian.

SkyChief wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:18pm:
The Opposition wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
Individual rights are great. They let libertarians just decide everything.

Don't like other peoples' pets? Those pets violate your individual rights!

Like your own pets? Your individual rights allow you, the libertarian, to have property rights to your pets.


Only if our pets pose no risk to our neighbors.

Chickens, cougars, and alligators - each poses a serious threat to neighbors.

Chickens: Salmonella,  H5N1,  Campylobacter infections

Cougars:  teeth/claws to bite/maul

Alligators: teeth to bite

And Diamondback rattlers.   Their bite is nasty, and can cause paralysis and death if untreated.


The point is that you want it all. For that to happen, others have to have less. Argue that economics aren't a zero-sum game, but rights are. For you to have more, I have to have less.

And you want more.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #81 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:47pm
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Tommy Palven wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 12:49pm:
If one accepts the premise that it is ethical to treat people equally fairly regardless of race, color, creed, gender, national origin, etc., then, imvho, it can be logically shown that it is unethical both to  tax people and to prevent them from travelling anywhere they want to except on privately owned property without the owner's permission.
That leads directly to anarchy and open borders. If that's what you want, then your actions leading to it are ethical.

What if ethical actions have unethical outcomes, and you know the outcome will not be ethical? Are the actions still ethical, or should you think about it more?

In any case, people who believe in having separate nations, or simply recognize that nation states are a fact of current life, consider illegal immigration to be the equivalent of trespass.

You could say, is it ethical to use force to prevent trespass?
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #82 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:58pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:24pm:
Which is a nice standard until people hurt you and take your stuff, who are invariably libertarians.

Libertarians believe my neighbour has every right to have a dog that bites me, but I'm not allowed to have a chicken because that risks others.


Maybe some do. 

Dog owners are responsible for injuries from bites in most states.  In most municipalities, there are Laws or ordinances that will protect you from evil libertarians who insist that you must allow their dogs to bite you, and wreck your garden.

However, in some local municipalities, dogs can be destroyed when they bite a human. Of course, this is very rare, and only happens when the dog in question has several attacks on its rap sheet.

You have legal recourse available. You have already completed Phase 1:  You confronted the dog's owner.

If the dog continues to bite you or continues to wreck your garden, you may file a report with the local Animal Control (dog catcher).

Learn about your local dog nuisance Laws.   They are there to protect YOUR rights, not the (nuisance) dog.

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #83 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 4:22pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:58pm:
Learn about your local dog nuisance Laws.   They are there to protect YOUR rights, not the (nuisance) dog.


These are not real rights. The government gives them out, not god/life/the universe/everything.

Interesting that the government doesn't just want to screw me over at every turn.

They're willing to give me a fair amount of rights; to balance my wellbeing with the dog owner. They give me legal recourse.

Until I joined this forum, I believed they had the ability to do that. And I was very happy.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #84 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 6:42pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 4:22pm:
These are not real rights. The government gives them out, not god/life/the universe/everything.

Interesting that the government doesn't just want to screw me over at every turn.

They're willing to give me a fair amount of rights; to balance my wellbeing with the dog owner. They give me legal recourse.

Until I joined this forum, I believed they had the ability to do that. And I was very happy.
And you're still just as clueless as when you came on the forum... Oh well.
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #85 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 8:49pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 4:22pm:
These are not real rights. The government gives them out, not god/life/the universe/everything.

Perhaps, but they stand up in a court of Law.

Juries often award handsome sums of money to dog-bite victims. 

Play your cards right, and you could really cash in.

The Opposition wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 4:22pm:
...They're willing to give me a fair amount of rights;

Forget equality.    Forget fairness.     Get a good lawyer.   

Next time dog bites you,  go to the hospital.  Tell the doc you need a temporary cast.   Get pics of you in the cast.   Juries eat that shit up.   

I'm tellin' ya - you could really make some decent money.   

If your neighbor threatens to harm you in any way, get a restraining order against him.   A restraining order means he can't get within 300 feet of you.    If his house is less than 300 feet away from yours, that means he has to move, because if he walks on his own property, he has violated the restraining order, and you could have him arrested.

Get a good lawyer.  He/she will probably want 30% - 40% of your settlement, but at least you'll have the satisfaction of teaching that libertarian a thing or two about rights!!   Grin
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #86 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:09pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 8:49pm:
Perhaps, but they stand up in a court of Law.


I do not care. All I care about is respecting rights.

SkyChief wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 8:49pm:
Play your cards right, and you could really cash in.

Forget equality.    Forget fairness.     Get a good lawyer.   

Next time dog bites you,  go to the hospital.  Tell the doc you need a temporary cast.   Get pics of you in the cast.   Juries eat that shit up.   

I'm tellin' ya - you could really make some decent money.   

If your neighbor threatens to harm you in any way, get a restraining order against him.   A restraining order means he can't get within 300 feet of you.    If his house is less than 300 feet away from yours, that means he has to move, because if he walks on his own property, he has violated the restraining order, and you could have him arrested.

Get a good lawyer.  He/she will probably want 30% - 40% of your settlement, but at least you'll have the satisfaction of teaching that libertarian a thing or two about rights!!   Grin


You act as if I don't want to respect his rights. You act as if I want to scream to the government and get whatever I can.

I want to respect rights. End of story. People just have so many that I end up having to bend over backwards.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Tommy Palven
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Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #87 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 5:08am
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Jeff wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:47pm:
That leads directly to anarchy and open borders. If that's what you want, then your actions leading to it are ethical.



France and Germany fought wars against each other, and yet today the border stations have been removed and all you see are signs saying Welcome to France and Welcome to Germany.  Same with other European countries. 

You can drive from Amsterdam down into Italy and Spain without stopping at borders or showing passports, and yet there is no anarchy.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #88 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 7:23am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:09pm:
I do not care. All I care about is respecting rights.


You have a right to be compensated by wrongdoers when they cause harm to you.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #89 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 7:24am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:09pm:
You act as if I don't want to respect his rights.
No one has a right to escape paying for damage caused by animals they own.
  

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