Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful? (Read 2118 times)
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #90 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 7:30am
Print Post  
Tommy Palven wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 5:08am:
France and Germany fought wars against each other, and yet today the border stations have been removed and all you see are signs saying Welcome to France and Welcome to Germany.  Same with other European countries. 

You can drive from Amsterdam down into Italy and Spain without stopping at borders or showing passports, and yet there is no anarchy.
You can do the same within the U.S., drive from state to state without passports or border stops.

If you go to big cities in many European countries, there are anarchic places. Paris is an example.

There are also anarchic places in "progressive" large U.S. cities.

Anarchy isn't something that happens immediately with uncontrolled borders, but European countries are closing their borders to uncontrolled immigration.

If there is a philosophical/moral/ethical case for open borders, doesn't the same argument apply to trespass?

If it is wrong to be selective about who you allow in your country, isn't it just as wrong to be selective about who you allow in your home?


  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10380
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #91 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 9:56am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 7:30am:
If there is a philosophical/moral/ethical case for open borders, doesn't the same argument apply to trespass?


No. Fundamental inability to understand property rights.

Your house is your property. You decide who comes in.

Some other guy's factory or orchard isn't. So you don't.

There is no "my" country, just your property, and the property of others. (We live in America, not the the UAE or Japan, lol.)

Jeff wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 7:30am:
If it is wrong to be selective about who you allow in your country, isn't it just as wrong to be selective about who you allow in your home?


No.

Jeff wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 7:23am:
You have a right to be compensated by wrongdoers when they cause harm to you.


But not in excess of the harm caused, which the government will take if I involve them.

Still, if you're sure hiring a lawyer is the libertarian thing.

I stand to make a lot of money. And that dog is getting destroyed because I know for a fact it's not current on its rabies shots. You'd better tell me not to do it if you don't want me to rights somehow prevent me.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tommy Palven
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2028
Location: North America
Joined: Sep 27th, 2011
Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #92 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 10:09am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 7:30am:
If it is wrong to be selective about who you allow in your country, isn't it just as wrong to be selective about who you allow in your home?


I agree with The Opposition on this one.

I own my house, but you and I don't own central North America any more that the Cherokees or the Sioux owned it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #93 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 1:41pm
Print Post  
Tommy Palven wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 10:09am:
I agree with The Opposition on this one.

I own my house, but you and I don't own central North America any more that the Cherokees or the Sioux owned it.
In a broad sense, we own the government, and the people of the U.S. are sovereign over both the government and the country.

Exercising the powers we've granted to them within the republican form provided, our representatives have passed laws governing immigration, as they have been granted power to do.

As to all the "government" land in the U.S., which I think you might be referring to, it should be sold. We didn't grant our government any authority to own land other than a few specific instances. In the meantime, it has the status of U.S. territory, and immigration laws apply there.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Big Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5755
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #94 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 5:31pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 1:41pm:
In a broad sense, we own the government, and the people of the U.S. are sovereign over both the government and the country.

Exercising the powers we've granted to them within the republican form provided, our representatives have passed laws governing immigration, as they have been granted power to do.

As to all the "government" land in the U.S., which I think you might be referring to, it should be sold. We didn't grant our government any authority to own land other than a few specific instances. In the meantime, it has the status of U.S. territory, and immigration laws apply there.


That’s absurd.  No government can function without owning land and no private individual can own land without government.

Land is the basis of government.  All governments govern within a geographic territory.  There is no government that defines its subjects any other way than by territorial boundaries. 

That’s why my idea of geo-agrarian libertarianism is so brilliant.  The government’s one and only necessary function is to control territory and protect privately owned land (ok, you could argue that this is two functions, but whatever).  It could pay for that through growing food on government land or leasing government land to food producers.  Money could be backed by food commodities and thus both limited in supply and expandable to meet needs to the economy.

Honestly, “brilliant” is not a strong enough word for my idea.  I wish there were a forum with more actual libertarians so I could discuss it with them.

  

Snarky no more!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #95 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:38pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 9:56am:
No. Fundamental inability to understand property rights.

Your house is your property. You decide who comes in.

Some other guy's factory or orchard isn't. So you don't.

There is no "my" country, just your property, and the property of others. (We live in America, not the the UAE or Japan, lol.)


It's our country, governed by our laws made by our representatives under the authority of our Constitution.

Thus we have immigration laws, and they aren't likely to change to open border immigration laws because only a very few people want open borders.

I have an expansive enough view of property rights to extend them to the case of Americans owning America.


  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #96 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:43pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 5:31pm:
That’s absurd.  No government can function without owning land and no private individual can own land without government.
We granted the federal government the District of Columbia and the power of eminent domain to take land (with fair compensation) for military bases. Why would they need more?

Owning property is a natural right of every individual, and all we ask of government is that they protect that right for us.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #97 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:45pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 5:31pm:
There is no government that defines its subjects any other way than by territorial boundaries. 
I didn't realize you were talking about that type of government... Yes, tyrannical governments often treat their subjects like... subjects.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #98 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:47pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 5:31pm:
It could pay for that through growing food on government land or leasing government land to food producers.
Our government isn't granted any authority to own land it could grow crops on, or to grow crops in the first place, or to lease land they have no authority to claim ownership of.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 655
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Reply #99 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 8:12pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:43pm:
We granted the federal government the District of Columbia and the power of eminent domain to take land (with fair compensation) for military bases. Why would they need more?


Well, duh!

Actually, you seem to have hallucinated a restriction on eminent domain that only allows it for military bases.  As you know, under our constitutional system in which the USSC is the one and only agency that tells us what the constitution means, government can take land for almost any purpose, especially to give it to someone who might pay more taxes (or with - you know - better lobbyists).

So, yeah.  With eminent domain being unlimited, why would the government need more than unlimited? 

I think you miss LBM's point about government and land.  I don't necessarily agree with his point, but at least I took the time to understand it before rejecting it..

Stop reading posts through the bottom of a Wild Turkey bottle . . .

Quote:
Owning property is a natural right of every individual, and all we ask of government is that they protect that right for us.


I tend to think that also, but LBM raises some points you have yet to answer.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Armed Militia Detain Migrants At US-Mexico Border - Is It Lawful?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy