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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed? (Read 3067 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #30 - May 2nd, 2019 at 11:18am
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Libertarians rely on ridicule and diversionary tactics to win. They can't fathom putting themselves in the place of someone else, and they are absolutely incapable of adopting the perspective of another. It's all me me me, mine mine mine.

Burnsy: HOAs are legitimate under libertarian theory.
Libertarians: Hahaha lol you like HOAs. HOAs are bad so you lose.

It's sad that the more authoritarian you go on the spectrum, the more people understand that things that should be allowed and things that I personally like are not categorically equivalent.

I hate dogs, and I have a tendency to wish they would all disappear, but I think people should be allowed to have them. Yes, even if I am risked.

Libertarians think I should not be able to have a tiger because risk. They think I shouldn't even be allowed to have a chicken because of bird flu.

It's inconceivable to a libertarian to advocate that people should be allowed to have something that risks them slightly, but when they risk others, it's, "STAY OUT OF MY BUSINESS TYRANT!!!"
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: USA gets some $ of members of HOA(s) that unnecessarily restrict?
Reply #31 - May 2nd, 2019 at 2:07pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 10:04am:
Of course Active Duty military would be included in the HOA fees waiver,,  but not all government employees.  The idea is to honor people who have fought to defend this country.
Not that many people in the military do any actual fighting, and a lot of the fighting that is done is arguably not actually defending America... But it's your HOA, make whatever rules you like.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #32 - May 2nd, 2019 at 2:08pm
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Little Big Man wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 10:16am:
I never said I “liked” them.  I said that they have consent of the governed.
I still can't figure out why you would consent to be governed by a HOA and not any other type of government.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #33 - May 2nd, 2019 at 4:00pm
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Jeff wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 2:08pm:
I still can't figure out why you would consent to be governed by a HOA and not any other type of government.


I’ve never been offered a chance to consent/not consent to any other type of government.  Every other type of government that governs me has been presented as a fait accompli that I must accept. 

I was offerred a mortgage contract that required me to pay dues to a homeowners association to buy a home that had a deed restriction also requiring membership.  I signed it, therefore I consented.  I had to option to refuse and if I had, I could have reasonable found a home with no such requirement for purchase.

That’s the difference.

Tell me how I can consent/not consent to my federal, state, county, municipal or constable precinct government.  Did I consent merely by being born?


  

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Jeff
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Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #34 - May 2nd, 2019 at 6:38pm
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Little Big Man wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 4:00pm:
I’ve never been offered a chance to consent/not consent to any other type of government.  Every other type of government that governs me has been presented as a fait accompli that I must accept. 

I was offerred a mortgage contract that required me to pay dues to a homeowners association to buy a home that had a deed restriction also requiring membership.  I signed it, therefore I consented.  I had to option to refuse and if I had, I could have reasonable found a home with no such requirement for purchase.

That’s the difference.

Tell me how I can consent/not consent to my federal, state, county, municipal or constable precinct government.  Did I consent merely by being born?


That's a very fatalistic attitude.

Governments can be changed, and ours can be changed by legal processes rather than by insurrections and wars (or invasion and conquest) which is the case for most governments throughout history.

I'm sure you would rather have been born somewhere else, but wherever it might be that you'd choose, you won't get asked whether or not you consent to whatever form of government they have there, you will simply be born a citizen or a subject, and it will certainly be more difficult to change whatever other government you might choose than it is to change ours.

In a sense, you have consented to your local and state governments by not moving... Have you ever moved? Did the new-to-you local or state governments ask you if you consented to be governed by their laws?

What you are insisting on is absurd, and has nothing to do with consent of the governed as it was understood when Patrick Henry used the phrase.

There are lots of things our government currently does that were not consented to by the people, that is, they are extra-constitutional actions. I want to change that using legal means, and I think there is lots of support for doing just that. Why don't you help?

Wait, I forgot, you think no government can ever be legitimate and taxes are theft. You want anarchy.


  

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Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #35 - May 2nd, 2019 at 6:54pm
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Jeff wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 2:08pm:
I still can't figure out why you would consent to be governed by a HOA and not any other type of government.

We had a unique opportunity to buy a property while it was still in the development phase.  At the time we started escrow, our house was nothing more than a 10-inch thick concrete slab.

But we saved tens of thousands of dollars by getting in early.   Also, we had our choice of floor plan, AND we were able to select the unit with the best view.  We were so anxious to get in on the "ground floor" (pun intended), we were not very diligent with reading and understanding the CC&Rs.

Had we fully understood the power and control that the Association wielded, we would certainly have walked away.

Totally my fault - I won't try to lay the blame elsewhere. 
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #36 - May 3rd, 2019 at 12:01pm
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Jeff wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 6:38pm:
That's a very fatalistic attitude.

Governments can be changed, and ours can be changed by legal processes rather than by insurrections and wars (or invasion and conquest) which is the case for most governments throughout history.

I'm sure you would rather have been born somewhere else, but wherever it might be that you'd choose, you won't get asked whether or not you consent to whatever form of government they have there, you will simply be born a citizen or a subject, and it will certainly be more difficult to change whatever other government you might choose than it is to change ours.

In a sense, you have consented to your local and state governments by not moving... Have you ever moved? Did the new-to-you local or state governments ask you if you consented to be governed by their laws?

What you are insisting on is absurd, and has nothing to do with consent of the governed as it was understood when Patrick Henry used the phrase.

There are lots of things our government currently does that were not consented to by the people, that is, they are extra-constitutional actions. I want to change that using legal means, and I think there is lots of support for doing just that. Why don't you help?

Wait, I forgot, you think no government can ever be legitimate and taxes are theft. You want anarchy.




I’m not insisting on anything.  I’m asking you since you insist that there is consent of the governed how that  consent is expressed in a way that we know that the consenters have an option to either consent or not consent.

The fact that you claim that I consent by not moving or by moving to a location that is governed tells me that you understand the question and are trying to answer. 

Unfortunately, that answer is not sufficient.  I could move from Harris County if I don’t consent but I would by necessity move to another place with another non-consensual government.  Not saying that’s ever going to change.  My claim is that “consent of the governed” isn’t a real thing under any existing system.  It’s an ideal to be striven for, yes.  But lets not derail that striving by pretending we already have consent of the governed.

  

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Jeff
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Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #37 - May 3rd, 2019 at 1:39pm
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Little Big Man wrote on May 3rd, 2019 at 12:01pm:
I’m not insisting on anything.  I’m asking you since you insist that there is consent of the governed how that  consent is expressed in a way that we know that the consenters have an option to either consent or not consent.

The fact that you claim that I consent by not moving or by moving to a location that is governed tells me that you understand the question and are trying to answer. 

Unfortunately, that answer is not sufficient.  I could move from Harris County if I don’t consent but I would by necessity move to another place with another non-consensual government.  Not saying that’s ever going to change.  My claim is that “consent of the governed” isn’t a real thing under any existing system.  It’s an ideal to be striven for, yes.  But lets not derail that striving by pretending we already have consent of the governed.

As you envision it, requiring that each individual falling within the jurisdiction of any government must grant consent in order to legitimize the government simply makes legitimate government impossible.

If you don't understand how the American people grant consent to our form of government and the duties it's been granted, then you don't.


  

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AlayneLeung
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Does HOA have Consent of person(s) respectively Governed of said HOA?
Reply #38 - May 3rd, 2019 at 2:28pm
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SkyChief replied:

Quote:
The HOA Board Directors are elected by the homeowners.  Much like the lawmakers in Congress.   The HOA CC&Rs document is the equivalent of the U S Constitution.

So the democratic structure is essentially the same.  The HOA is just local government on a micro scale.

They still suck, because the corruption which plagues the federal government also plagues some HOAs.


What does that reply define as "equivalent"? I'm guessing that reply defines "equivalent" as "similar to USA Constitution but subordinate to USA Constitution".

Little Big Man replied:

Quote:
But if you do join one, that’s consent.


1.  If a person wants to join a HOA, and that HOA doesn't easily provide to that person ahead of her or him joining a copy of reasonable amount of easily English readable list of all rules and regulations of said HOA, then is that not really consent? Why or why not?

2.  If that is not really consent, then does that seem more like theoretical blackmail or theoretical fraud or theoretical bribery or theoretical coercion if she or he has to join said HOA because of economic or relocational moving problem(s) she or her has? Why or why not?

3.  Should any HOA, that's entire membership's agreement (of HOA's commencement) that allows (or will allow) (or perhaps has allowed in case of time travel) any or all rule(s) or any or all regulation(s) of said HOA to be changed, must be required by USA Constitution or the Constitution of the State that said HOA is in, to make that agreement publicly known at all times? Why or why not?
« Last Edit: May 3rd, 2019 at 4:02pm by AlayneLeung »  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #39 - May 3rd, 2019 at 4:15pm
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Jeff wrote on May 3rd, 2019 at 1:39pm:
As you envision it, requiring that each individual falling within the jurisdiction of any government must grant consent in order to legitimize the government simply makes legitimate government impossible.


I think I see where the disconnect is.  Obviously consent must be an individual act.  To say otherwise is the rankest of collectivism.  My point is not that there is no consent, therefore no government is legitimate.  My original question months ago was “IF legitimacy is consent of the governed, how are we expressing consent?”

A hypothetical government that purported to govern a specified area of land but did not use any aggression on its people but instead only protected it from aggression would indeed be a legitimate government regardless of whether the people consent to it or not. 

Government in that case is a service provider like any other.  I don’t consent to ACME security services providing services and I don’t consent to Mercenary armies fighting on behalf of international corporations.  So long as they don’t interfere with my life or demand I pay them, it’s none of my business.

Quote:
If you don't understand how the American people grant consent to our form of government and the duties it's been granted, then you don't.




You don’t understand either, or you would explain in instead of saying, “well, if you don’t know, I’m not going to tell you!”
  

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