Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed? (Read 3070 times)
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 8005
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #70 - May 9th, 2019 at 5:31am
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 5:17pm:
Right!

See, that’s what I keep trying to explain to Jeff and Kaz.  Just because a government is voluntary, doesn’t mean it can’t be as authoritarian and as greedy as they prefer government to be



1) You're an idiot.

2)  You never said that to me

3)  HOAs still aren't government, they are contractual agreements.  Of course we should be free to voluntarily enter into contractual agreements

4)  You haven't explained this oppressive government that is voluntary and I don't know what the hell you're talking about.  Then again, neither do you because, go to 5

5) See 1

Anyway, my morning time is up.  Off to see more of Paris.  Probabaly won't be back on your favorite forum until I'm back in the good old US of A
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 47665
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #71 - May 9th, 2019 at 8:17am
Print Post  
kaz wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 5:28am:
What a stupid thread and moronic discussion.  HOAs are contractual agreements, not governments.  This whole discussion makes no sense.

And HOAs are the whole point of libertarianism.  Voluntarily finding a community that represents your values and acts according to your personal views of how your community should be run rather than government passing laws restricting your use of your own property
The Sack and I find it a useful analogy for discussion.

His contention is that HOAs are legitimate forms of governance because 100% of the people who enter into them consent to be governed by the rules created/approved by the HOA board of directors or whatever they are called.

That's his whole point, that any governance must be consented to by all the individuals who come under its jurisdiction.

That causes him to make absurd statements such as that all the members of native tribes consent to be governed by the decisions of the tribal councils even though not all members of the tribe even get to speak in the tribal council, much less vote... He makes up for this deficiency in logic by claiming that the right to leave the tribe and go to someplace where total anarchy reigns somehow means that tribe members who choose to stay have given tacit consent to the tribal council's decisions, and that that doesn't apply in the U.S. today because there are no totally anarchic places left in the world to go.

If you want to join the discussion we've been having, fine.

Voluntarily finding a community that has rules/laws/ordinances you generally approve of and moving there is permitted in free countries.

So is creating a new community with pre-existing rules and inviting people who agree with the rules to move there, if they sign an agreement to abide by the rules... But most people would rather live free of HOAs rather than under them, which is why HOAs aren't wildly popular. I'll speculate that HOAs aren't more popular because they add an extra layer of rules to the existing local state and federal laws which still apply and an extra expense beyond the local state and federal taxes that still apply.

It is a very 'libertarian' idea to create a community/nation where where all the functions of government are performed by private organizations that can be joined voluntarily or not, paid for voluntarily or not, ignored or not, and all the rules will be unanimously consented to...
But it's not practical and hasn't ever been done, nor, in my opinion, is it ever likely to happen. It's a utopian idea which, like all utopian ideas, fails to take account of the nature of human beings.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Big Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5890
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #72 - May 10th, 2019 at 1:05pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 8:17am:
The Sack and I find it a useful analogy for discussion.

His contention is that HOAs are legitimate forms of governance because 100% of the people who enter into them consent to be governed by the rules created/approved by the HOA board of directors or whatever they are called.

That's his whole point, that any governance must be consented to by all the individuals who come under its jurisdiction.


not quite.  One of my many points is that if you claim a particular government is legitimate because “consent of the governed” you have to have a way of determing consent and a reasonable way to express non-consent.  Our government has neither.

I don’t accept the idea of passive consent making a government legitimate no matter how much force it uses.

Quote:
That causes him to make absurd statements such as that all the members of native tribes consent to be governed by the decisions of the tribal councils even though not all members of the tribe even get to speak in the tribal council, much less vote...


but they get to leave the tribe without being called “insurrectionists and being killed.

Quote:
He makes up for this deficiency in logic by claiming that the right to leave the tribe and go to someplace where total anarchy reigns somehow means that tribe members who choose to stay have given tacit consent to the tribal council's decisions, and that that doesn't apply in the U.S. today because there are no totally anarchic places left in the world to go.


Where is the factual error in that?

Quote:
If you want to join the discussion we've been having, fine.

Voluntarily finding a community that has rules/laws/ordinances you generally approve of and moving there is permitted in free countries.

So is creating a new community with pre-existing rules and inviting people who agree with the rules to move there, if they sign an agreement to abide by the rules... But most people would rather live free of HOAs rather than under them, which is why HOAs aren't wildly popular. I'll speculate that HOAs aren't more popular because they add an extra layer of rules to the existing local state and federal laws which still apply and an extra expense beyond the local state and federal taxes that still apply.

It is a very 'libertarian' idea to create a community/nation where where all the functions of government are performed by private organizations that can be joined voluntarily or not, paid for voluntarily or not, ignored or not, and all the rules will be unanimously consented to...
But it's not practical and hasn't ever been done, nor, in my opinion, is it ever likely to happen. It's a utopian idea which, like all utopian ideas, fails to take account of the nature of human beings.


I would have no quarrel with that if you would simply admit that no existing government has consent of the governed but that you think they are legitimate anyway. 

You want to insist that “consent of the governed” is the standard and that somehow our government meets it in some way you cannot explain.
  

Snarky no more!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 47665
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #73 - May 10th, 2019 at 3:37pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on May 10th, 2019 at 1:05pm:
You want to insist that “consent of the governed” is the standard and that somehow our government meets it in some way you cannot explain.
At this point, my assertion is that you are incapable of understanding any concept of consent other than your own narrow anarchic idea.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 47665
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #74 - May 10th, 2019 at 3:39pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on May 10th, 2019 at 1:05pm:
Where is the factual error in that?
Your error is not of fact, but of logic.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 8005
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #75 - May 16th, 2019 at 9:19am
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on May 10th, 2019 at 1:05pm:
not quite.  One of my many points is that if you claim a particular government is legitimate because “consent of the governed” you have to have a way of determing consent and a reasonable way to express non-consent.  Our government has neither.

I don’t accept the idea of passive consent making a government legitimate no matter how much force it uses.


but they get to leave the tribe without being called “insurrectionists and being killed.


Where is the factual error in that?


I would have no quarrel with that if you would simply admit that no existing government has consent of the governed but that you think they are legitimate anyway. 

You want to insist that “consent of the governed” is the standard and that somehow our government meets it in some way you cannot explain.


Jeff doesn't believe in consent of the governed, he thinks if you try to leave the country, government can conquer you and force you to remain in the union.

But the concept of consent is still simple.  If the general populace supports the government so that government force is not required to maintain the government, then the people consent.  You can't put it to a vote because it depends on the level of dissent of those opposing the government.  A lot more people can mildly disapprove than actively disapprove. 

The founders felt that if you could get 2/3, 2/3 and 3/4, that was sufficient to establish consent.  They never envisioned 50% + 1 or even worse, 5/9 as we have today.  That is why we are being ripped apart.  The government is ruling over areas there is clearly NOT consent.  But until people stop consenting to the government itself, nothing will happen.

In the United States, the population sadly does consent.  There is no serious effort to overthrow the government despite that it is no longer legitimate as it completely disregards its Constitutional limits.  Unfortunately, the people are consenting to that.

It's like if your lease calls for someone renting a room from you to keep their stuff in their own room, use a certain shelf on the fridge, etc.  If they disregard that and you don't care, it may be a technical violation of the lease, but there is no consequence.

I do no longer consent to our government.  I follow it's laws only because they have the guns.  But I realize until more people realize that our government is now more mafia than referee, nothing will change
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 47665
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #76 - May 16th, 2019 at 10:15am
Print Post  
kaz wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 9:19am:
Jeff doesn't believe in consent of the governed...
I do and I've explained my understanding of it, which is very much in line with the idea of consent of the governed espoused by the classical liberals.

When speaking of the CSA and their rebellion against the lawful government, always remember that the slaves they sought to keep in bondage by creating a new nation that put the preservation and extension of chattel slavery high on it's list of the duties of government did not consent to being slaves.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Big Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5890
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #77 - May 16th, 2019 at 12:51pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 10:15am:
I do and I've explained my understanding of it, which is very much in line with the idea of consent of the governed espoused by the classical liberals.

When speaking of the CSA and their rebellion against the lawful government, always remember that the slaves they sought to keep in bondage by creating a new nation that put the preservation and extension of chattel slavery high on it's list of the duties of government did not consent to being slaves.


Right, only the slaves in the Union states and those owned by the signers of the Constitution consented.
  

Snarky no more!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 47665
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #78 - May 16th, 2019 at 3:19pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 12:51pm:
Right, only the slaves in the Union states and those owned by the signers of the Constitution consented.
None of the slaves consented, but the movement was towards eliminating slavery. The slave states saw the handwriting on the wall, which is why they decided to secede and create a new nation dedicated to the preservation and expansion of slavery.

The people who created the CSA had even less consent than what existed for the creation of the USA, no matter which way you view consent.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 8005
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Reply #79 - May 16th, 2019 at 4:20pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 12:51pm:
Right, only the slaves in the Union states and those owned by the signers of the Constitution consented.


I doubted any slave consented.  You could try when you're being snarky to be funnier.  You just sound like a troll.

Consent of the governed for a country isn't at the individual level.  So again, you're just trolling.  If it were, I would overthrow our government
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Do Homeowers Associations have Consent of the Governed?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy