Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Is There ANY Legitimate Reason to Ban Gambling?
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Is There ANY Legitimate Reason to Ban Gambling? (Read 545 times)
Little Big Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5755
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Is There ANY Legitimate Reason to Ban Gambling?
Apr 29th, 2019 at 5:33pm
Print Post  
Or even regulate it?

  

Snarky no more!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10821
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Is There ANY Legitimate Reason to Ban Gambling?
Reply #1 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:18pm
Print Post  
Nope!

Gambling is a recreational activity.   Gambler assumes risks.    Just like riding a motorcycle.  Or skydiving.

Keep government out of it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Is There ANY Legitimate Reason to Ban Gambling?
Reply #2 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:51pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 5:33pm:
Or even regulate it?

A better question is, where in our constitution(s) did we grant any authority to our governments to ban gambling, or even regulate it?
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 655
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: Is There ANY Legitimate Reason to Ban Gambling?
Reply #3 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 7:36pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:51pm:
A better question is, where in our constitution(s) did we grant any authority to our governments to ban gambling, or even regulate it?


If you believe that "we," meaning people living today, granted authorities in the U.S. Constitution, then you should read this:

Amendment X


The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


I don't see how you can read that as not allowing states to ban gambling, alcohol, homosexuality or any other vice.

LBM's question was about justification, not granted powers.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Is There ANY Legitimate Reason to Ban Gambling?
Reply #4 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 7:30am
Print Post  
Little Biq Man wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 7:36pm:
If you believe that "we," meaning people living today, granted authorities in the U.S. Constitution, then you should read this:

Amendment X


The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


I don't see how you can read that as not allowing states to ban gambling, alcohol, homosexuality or any other vice.

LBM's question was about justification, not granted powers.

State constitutions don't grant state governments unlimited powers.

If you agree that no power to ban gambling is granted to the federal government, where do you find it in state constitutions?

Perhaps your state bans gambling... Where do you see the grant of authority to do that?


"Legitimate reasons" differ in the eyes of different people.

A "progressive" viewpoint will lead to saying things like "It's in the interests of public health to ban large soft drinks" or "Society is harmed when gambling addictions lead heads of families to squander their paychecks and throw their families into poverty where they become a burden on the welfare system and thus on the state/nation as a whole" or "The use of illegal drugs makes people unemployable and destroys families and health, thus burdening the welfare system and society as a whole."

The "burden on society" argument for banning all sorts of things has been popular with "progressives" for a very long time.

Speaking of government overreach in assuming powers not granted, here's an interesting story:

https://www.alloutdoor.com/2019/04/24/navy-veteran-imprisoned-fined-digging-pond...
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2511
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: Is There ANY Legitimate Reason to Ban Gambling?
Reply #5 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:24am
Print Post  
A.  Before the 14th amendment, states could do almost anything they wanted.  As the powers not reserved to the feds nor prohibited to the states are reserved to the States or the People.  Does the Constitution say, "States shall not ban Gambling?"  I don't think they should but States can clearly ban gambling under the constitution as written.  If you accept an expansive interpretation of the 14th amendment then you could argue that we have an inalienable right to gamble.  As to what individual state constitutions say on the matter, I'll leave that to the citizens of those states to figure out.

B. I don't buy it as a legit reason but....Gambling does tend to attract other crime. That's often one of the excuses for banning it, that and the folk just can't control themselves.

C.  I think its fine to regulate in a reasonable manner.  Slot machines must post their odds or similar.   Outright fraud, like rigging roullete wheels or stacking decks should also be illegal.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Is There ANY Legitimate Reason to Ban Gambling?
Reply #6 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 10:34am
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:24am:
A.  Before the 14th amendment, states could do almost anything they wanted.
States have broad police powers to legislate in the interests of public health and safety, but that is not an unlimited grant of power.

It's an impossible stretch in my opinion to say that individual bad behavior, or even the bad behavior of a subset of the total state population affects the public health. It can affect the health of those who engage in the behavior, but that is an individual problem. Some people eat/drink too much sugar and fat while not exercising. That is not a "public" health problem. Some people abuse drugs, but that isn't a "public'' problem either.

Gambling is a problem for some people, but again, it's not a "public" problem.

What I can't find in state constitutions is any power to ban or regulate individual behavior unless it has good potential to harm innocent people. Drugged driving is an example. (Including alcohol.)

It isn't simple or cut and dried, because a gambling addiction does have potential to harm the family of the addicted person... But I still don't see that as a "public" problem.

"Progressives", by obligating productive people to bear the costs of individual bad behavior, have made it sound plausible that things like drug addiction or gambling addictions or food addictions are "public" problems, but only because they force the general public to bear the costs through welfare handouts and free medical care.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 44851
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Is There ANY Legitimate Reason to Ban Gambling?
Reply #7 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 10:39am
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:24am:
Gambling does tend to attract other crime.
Making anything that people like/want to do illegal automatically attracts criminals because they know there is good potential to get rich.

If people can gamble legally, there is no profit in criminals running gambling operations.

Fixed games are fraud and can be dealt with by tort law and the spread of information. You could easily go on-line and discover that Bob's Casino cheats, and avoid going there.

Just like illegal drugs, illegal gambling operations can't advertise (if they could, they would advertise their odds. Maybe as "Better odds than the State lottery". Grin) and aren't sued for cheating. Almost nobody files complaints that an illegal drug dealer cheated them or sold them bad drugs. Likewise for illegal gambling.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Big Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5755
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Is There ANY Legitimate Reason to Ban Gambling?
Reply #8 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 11:40am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 10:39am:
Making anything that people like/want to do illegal automatically attracts criminals because they know there is good potential to get rich.

If people can gamble legally, there is no profit in criminals running gambling operations.

Fixed games are fraud and can be dealt with by tort law and the spread of information. You could easily go on-line and discover that Bob's Casino cheats, and avoid going there.


I greatly prefer the second option to the first.  I’m not saying a libertarian government could not have tort law that dealt with gambling fraud.  I’m saying that I don’t want to pay for that.  The first option uses the free market, so any libertarian should favor it.

Realize that to serious poker like myself, “gambler” is synonomous with “idiot.”  A big part of the profit a serious player can earn comes from winning the money of people who think poker is blackjack with more cards. 

The worst roulette player in the world does no worse than the best roulette player.  If they want some guarantee that the roulette wheel is really hitting their number one out of thirty-eight times while only paying them 35:1, and if they think that’s not enough of an edge for the owners without some additional rigging, let them pay for the civil court costs, not me.

Quote:
Just like illegal drugs, illegal gambling operations can't advertise (if they could, they would advertise their odds. Maybe as "Better odds than the State lottery". Grin) and aren't sued for cheating. Almost nobody files complaints that an illegal drug dealer cheated them or sold them bad drugs. Likewise for illegal gambling.


Be a good way to sleep with the fishes . . .

When you’re right, you’re right, Jeff.  You are right, right now!

I started this thread yesterday because I could not log onto my poker site.  I thought that with the ninety day leeway that clown Rosenstein had given online gambling sites to comply with the new “law” that Rosenstein single handedly passed, they had shut down.  I’m already keeping my cash holding their to a minimum expecting another “Black ____ “ for online poker.  Turned out it was just a temporary outage and I got back to the virtual tables within a few hours.



  

Snarky no more!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2511
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: Is There ANY Legitimate Reason to Ban Gambling?
Reply #9 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 3:05pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 10:39am:
Making anything that people like/want to do illegal automatically attracts criminals because they know there is good potential to get rich.

If people can gamble legally, there is no profit in criminals running gambling operations.

Fixed games are fraud and can be dealt with by tort law and the spread of information. You could easily go on-line and discover that Bob's Casino cheats, and avoid going there.

Just like illegal drugs, illegal gambling operations can't advertise (if they could, they would advertise their odds. Maybe as "Better odds than the State lottery". Grin) and aren't sued for cheating. Almost nobody files complaints that an illegal drug dealer cheated them or sold them bad drugs. Likewise for illegal gambling.

Like I said, I don't especially buy that argument but there is some evidence that even when gambling is legal it is associate with other criminal behavior.  In all likely hood it attracts loan sharks which is generally illegal and is thus associated with other crimes as you suggest.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Is There ANY Legitimate Reason to Ban Gambling?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy