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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rights and Self-Defence (Read 1611 times)
The Opposition
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Rights and Self-Defence
May 22nd, 2019 at 10:16pm
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If one person has rights, and another one doesn't, the one with rights can attack the one without, and the one without rights cannot permissibly self-defend.

If no one has rights, this scenario is impossible. Everyone can always permissibly self-defend.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #1 - May 22nd, 2019 at 10:53pm
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The right to self-defense is enjoyed by all, regardless if someone knows they have it or not.  Regardless if they want to exercise their right or not.

Self Defense is a natural right. 

We're born with it. . . . Everyone is!

It's possible to take away a person's means of Self Defense, but you can never take away their right of Self Defense.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #2 - May 23rd, 2019 at 9:52am
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SkyChief wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 10:53pm:
It's possible to take away a person's means of Self Defense, but you can never take away their right of Self Defense.


If someone has that right, no one can take it away. That's correct.

But I'm positing that the person never had that right to begin with.

Believing in rights is a lot like believing in god. They're just there, they need no evidence, that's the end of it. If anyone questions, ridicule to win.

That's why I think Jeff is correct. Libertarians have rights. I do not.

Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:49am:
You have no more rights than an animal, because your understanding of rights is at the level of a predatory animal.


Beliefs without evidence don't exist to make everything fair. They exist to give some an advantage. Everyone having rights is pretty much the same as no one having rights.

Therefore, rights must exist to make the world unfair.

So you're wrong, and Jeff is correct.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #3 - May 23rd, 2019 at 11:21am
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The Opposition wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 9:52am:
If someone has that right, no one can take it away. That's correct.

But I'm positing that the person never had that right to begin with.
The premise is flawed.   Everyone has a right of self-defense - whether they want it or not.

The Opposition wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 9:52am:
Believing in rights is a lot like believing in god. They're just there, they need no evidence, that's the end of it. If anyone questions, ridicule to win.

It's easily proven that everyone has a natural right to defend themselves. 

The Opposition wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 9:52am:
That's why I think Jeff is correct. Libertarians have rights. I do not.

Say you are on a crowded bus - standing room only.  A man approaches you and slaps you.   Not really hard, but hard enough to get your attention.  You look at the man like WTF?  and step away.

He moves in closer and slaps you again, only much harder.  Again you retreat, but he continues to attack, each blow becoming stronger.    Now he's pummeling you with a closed fist.

You have 2 options basically (you cannot flee - the bus is in motion, and very crowded):

1) fight back and defend yourself.

2) curl up in a fetal position and hope he stops hitting you.

The Opposition wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 9:52am:
Therefore, rights must exist to make the world unfair.

oh dear.  Roll Eyes
  
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Jeff
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #4 - May 23rd, 2019 at 11:41am
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The Opposition wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 9:52am:
Beliefs without evidence don't exist to make everything fair. They exist to give some an advantage. Everyone having rights is pretty much the same as no one having rights.
Ha ha. That's like saying everyone having food is like no one having food. Cheesy

I think you continue to misunderstand rights because you have accepted the erroneous assumption that rights are absolute...

Then again, you probably just want to lay the groundwork for your plan to institute a tyranny by muddling up the idea of rights. Angry

The conception of rights I have is that rights exist. There doesn't need to be a purpose behind their existence (although there is). Your right to free speech is the exact equal of my right to free speech, although you may have an advantage in speaking by reason of you being a supergenius, while I am a person of only average intellect...

No matter. Speak away and let others decide for themselves if your ideas are persuasive and well grounded or not, and I'll do the same. Smiley

Our rights to own property are also equal, although my ambition and drive and cleverness (and luck) might result in me ending up with more property than you have... Or not.

But as long as you acquire your property by legal means, you have a right to it, as I do to mine.

It's absolutely fair that we have the same rights, but absolutely certain that the outcomes will be different.

Now, if you happen to be a government crony, you will be afforded privileges that I will not, and that is unfair...
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #5 - May 23rd, 2019 at 9:08pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 11:21am:
The premise is flawed.   Everyone has a right of self-defense - whether they want it or not.


You're making a positive claim.

I've already agreed that people like Jeff have rights.

I dispute that there is any evidence at all that I have rights. If you disagree, show me some.

SkyChief wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 11:21am:
Say you are on a crowded bus - standing room only.  A man approaches you and slaps you.   Not really hard, but hard enough to get your attention.  You look at the man like WTF?  and step away.

He moves in closer and slaps you again, only much harder.  Again you retreat, but he continues to attack, each blow becoming stronger.    Now he's pummeling you with a closed fist.

You have 2 options basically (you cannot flee - the bus is in motion, and very crowded):

1) fight back and defend yourself.

2) curl up in a fetal position and hope he stops hitting you.


If he has rights and I don't, I can't do a thing to him.

If we both have rights, then presumably he has violated mine and I can defend myself.

But if neither of us has rights, I can defend myself, no questions asked.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #6 - May 23rd, 2019 at 10:10pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 9:08pm:
If he has rights and I don't, I can't do a thing to him.

Good.

As we have already agreed on the axiom that everyone has the right to self-defend, you are just being facetious.

which is what I suspected all along.

I'll let you and Jeff duke it out. . .

  
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Tom Palven
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #7 - May 24th, 2019 at 5:26am
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SkyChief wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 10:53pm:
The right to self-defense is enjoyed by all, regardless if someone knows they have it or not.  Regardless if they want to exercise their right or not.

Self Defense is a natural right. 

We're born with it. . . . Everyone is!

It's possible to take away a person's means of Self Defense, but you can never take away their right of Self Defense.


According to the Declaration of Independence, all men are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

But, it seems just as hard to prove that these rights that God allegedly gave to "all men" actually exist as it is to prove that the Divine Rights of Kings actually exist.

Imvho it is probably a lot easier to show that:

1.  No person is born with a right to aggress against another person.

2.  If every  person zero rights to aggress against another person, a million people calling themselves a government still have no rights to coerce others.  One million times zero is zero.

I'm not trying to nitpick.  I agree 100% with where you are coming from,
but I think that this Lysander Spooner attitude toward "rights" is more logical and perhaps easier to defend.

The bottom line might be that trying to defend "rights" has never worked over the long haul, so why not attempt to try this approach?
  
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kaz
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #8 - May 24th, 2019 at 7:37am
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Tom Palven wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 5:26am:
1.  No person is born with a right to aggress against another person


Other than hacking servers.

It's a lot easier to say it than live it, isn't it, Tom?
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #9 - May 24th, 2019 at 7:53am
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Tom Palven wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 5:26am:
According to the Declaration of Independence, all men are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

But, it seems just as hard to prove that these rights that God allegedly gave to "all men" actually exist as it is to prove that the Divine Rights of Kings actually exist.

Imvho it is probably a lot easier to show that:

1.  No person is born with a right to aggress against another person.

2.  If every  person zero rights to aggress against another person, a million people calling themselves a government still have no rights to coerce others.  One million times zero is zero.

I'm not trying to nitpick.  I agree 100% with where you are coming from,
but I think that this Lysander Spooner attitude toward "rights" is more logical and perhaps easier to defend.

The bottom line might be that trying to defend "rights" has never worked over the long haul, so why not attempt to try this approach?
I agree, you have no right to steal from me or attack me physically.

I also disagree in that I believe governments can be granted power to punish you if you steal from me or attack me physically or do other things you have no right to do.

What's the alternative? Anarchy and the law of the jungle.
  
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