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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rights and Self-Defence (Read 3272 times)
Tommy Palven
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #20 - May 24th, 2019 at 9:52pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 7:22pm:
They were born with them.

English philosopher John Locke said that the most important natural rights are "Life, Liberty, and Property".

Self-ownership, self-defense, freedom of speech, are also natural rights.

“The State can't give you freedom, and the State can't take it away. You're born with it, like your eyes, like your ears. Freedom is something you assume, then you wait for someone to try to take it away. The degree to which you resist is the degree to which you are free...”   - Utah Phillips


Once you've accepted the existence of "certain unalienable rights" what keeps you from accepting Bernie Sanders' view that people are also born with rights to a living wage, affordable housing, and free medical care?

Why should Bernie care what rights John Locke thought were most important?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #21 - May 24th, 2019 at 10:09pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:56am:
Sure you can.   A slave doesn't have self ownership, but he can still defend himself.  If he has the will to.


Slaves have self-ownership. It's just being violated. You admit this with your cannabis example.

I actually have no rights. Here's some evidence. Do you have any evidence? I mean, you're the one making the positive claim that god- *cough* I'm sorry, rights, exist.

↓↓↓ EVIDENCE OPPOSITION DOES NOT HAVE RIGHTS ↓↓↓

Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:49am:
You have no more rights than an animal, because your understanding of rights is at the level of a predatory animal.


↑↑↑ EVIDENCE OPPOSITION DOES NOT HAVE RIGHTS ↑↑↑

Tommy Palven wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 9:52pm:
Once you've accepted the existence of "certain unalienable rights" what keeps you from accepting Bernie Sanders' view that people are also born with rights to a living wage, affordable housing, and free medical care?


The libertarian insistence that positive rights don't exist. If you question the dogma, you'll be ridiculed.

Libertarians have one argument, and one alone: Ridicule. It wins every time, though.

Personally I prefer to be stolen from for all manner of things other people want over the idea that any negative right a libertarian discovers is automatically legitimate.

So what if I have to give half my earnings to others? I can still do what I want with the other half. With libertarians about, I can't do anything. Among the eight billion people in the world, there will be a libertarian with some right that prevents me from doing it. Owning a tiger is a good example: It's a unanimous no.

The scary thing is, it doesn't have to be unanimous. One libertarian with a legitimate right he discovers is enough. One person whose rights prevent me from having a tiger, and I can't have one.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #22 - May 24th, 2019 at 10:19pm
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Tommy Palven wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 9:52pm:
Once you've accepted the existence of "certain unalienable rights" what keeps you from accepting Bernie Sanders' view that people are also born with rights to a living wage, affordable housing, and free medical care?
The rights that Bernie talks about are manufactured rights - not natural rights.

Living Wage, Affordable Housing, and Free Medical Care require a transfer of wealth, which means the government must forcibly take wealth from one group of people, and redistribute the stolen wealth to another group of people.

Of course, this violates the Lockean natural rights of Liberty and Property.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #23 - May 24th, 2019 at 10:20pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:19pm:
The rights that Bernie talks about are manufactured rights - not natural rights.


Living wage, affordable housing, and free medical care require a transfer of wealth, which means the government must forcibly take wealth from one group of people, and redistribute the stolen wealth to another group of people.

Of course, this violates the Lockean natural rights of Liberty and Property.


Unless the reason is public school. Then it's "not a transfer of wealth".
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #24 - May 24th, 2019 at 10:26pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:20pm:
Unless the reason is public school. Then it's "not a transfer of wealth".

Public School is also transfer of wealth.

A property owner who doesn't have any kids pays Property Tax, which pays to school children of parents who pay zero Property Tax.

That is certainly a transfer of wealth.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #25 - May 24th, 2019 at 10:27pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:26pm:
Public School is also transfer of wealth.

A property owner who doesn't have any kids pays Property Tax, which pays to school children of parents who pay zero Property Tax.

That is certainly a transfer of wealth.


Jeff wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 8:13am:
Providing for public schools with local taxation is not a transfer of wealth. Neither is using local taxes to fund the local police force or the county court or the jail.

  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #26 - May 24th, 2019 at 10:39pm
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Tommy Palven wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 5:26am:
. . .If every  person zero rights to aggress against another person, a million people calling themselves a government still have no rights to coerce others.  One million times zero is zero.

. . .I think that this Lysander Spooner attitude toward "rights" is more logical and perhaps easier to defend

“If taxation without consent is not robbery, then any band of robbers have only to declare themselves a government, and all their robberies are legalized.”  - Lysander Spooner

Smiley
  
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Jeff
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #27 - May 27th, 2019 at 7:26pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:09pm:
Slaves have self-ownership. It's just being violated.
Everyone owns themselves in theory, but in fact, slaves are usually legally owned by other people.

This is a fault of government, not rights theories or even any theory of good government.
  

"Free hate speech"
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Jeff
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #28 - May 27th, 2019 at 7:27pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:09pm:
Libertarians have one argument, and one alone: Ridicule. It wins every time, though.

The fact that you are such a dweeb proves categorically that everything you say is wrong. Cry
  

"Free hate speech"
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Jeff
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Re: Rights and Self-Defence
Reply #29 - May 27th, 2019 at 7:29pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:20pm:
Unless the reason is public school. Then it's "not a transfer of wealth".
You should address that to me, then explain why it is that you can't see the difference between paying policemen and transferring wealth to Boeing. Probably it's because you are such a dweeb. Kiss
  

"Free hate speech"
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