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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A Libertarian Approach To Foreign Policy (Read 2473 times)
Jeff
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Re: A Libertarian Approach To Foreign Policy
Reply #20 - May 29th, 2019 at 7:29am
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The Opposition wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 9:59pm:
I think Vulcan morality applies better here.

I'm not saying most Vulcans wouldn't make an exception here. In fact I'm sure they would.

But as far as Surak's teachings go, you cannot get less violence by adding more violence.

You cannot teach people that beating up others is bad by beating them up.


As usual, the libertarian answer to a problem that doesn't fit into their way of thinking is that the problem doesn't exist.

In this case I agree that Muslims are not one whit more violent than anyone else. But so what? What if there was such a group? What if certain immigrants were dangerous?

Well, your hardcore individualist philosophy falls apart, so whether they're dangerous or not, you'll insist there's no problem.
What?

I don't think so. Some individuals are violent, many are not. Some violent individuals voluntarily create associations for the purpose of violence, but unless you are talking about governments, it is individuals choosing to join violent gangs.

The individualistic libertarian view is that individuals who engage in violence should be punished, and individuals who don't should not, (but aiding and abetting counts)...

Does Vulcan morality say that if one Ferengi murders someone, all Ferengi should be held responsible? That's just wrong... Vulcans are usually rational aren't they?

Anyway, I thought we were talking about foreign policy? Immigration policy is domestic policy, not foreign policy.

  

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Re: A Libertarian Approach To Foreign Policy
Reply #21 - May 29th, 2019 at 9:16am
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SkyChief wrote on May 27th, 2019 at 3:17pm:
US intervention is the modern foreign policy.   We became the World's Policeman.   That needs to stop.


Neutrality and non-intervention would be great, but those who want such policies will be waiting for a long time.

It's just not possible for the US to maintain the value of the dollar without active empire-promoting and war creation.  Because we have done these things in the past, doing them less would embolden those who oppose us to turn our decline into a collapse.

These things are a perfect analogy to addiction.  Once you start them, you can't really turn back (even though continuing is not sustainable in the long run.)  If and when the value of the dollar collapses, our entire living standard and social fabric would be in trouble.  This part of what the elites keep telling us is objectively true.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A Libertarian Approach To Foreign Policy
Reply #22 - May 29th, 2019 at 9:24am
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Jeff wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 7:29am:
What?

I don't think so. Some individuals are violent, many are not. Some violent individuals voluntarily create associations for the purpose of violence, but unless you are talking about governments, it is individuals choosing to join violent gangs.

The individualistic libertarian view is that individuals who engage in violence should be punished, and individuals who don't should not, (but aiding and abetting counts)...


And that's a great philosophy.

And it holds if no one group is disproportionately violent. Good thing this happens to be true, right?

If some immigrants really were disproportionately violent, your philosophy would fall apart, so you can't explore the issue and you can only insist it's not the case. Sad.

Jeff wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 7:29am:
Does Vulcan morality say that if one Ferengi murders someone, all Ferengi should be held responsible? That's just wrong... Vulcans are usually rational aren't they?


Just out of curiosity, why use Ferengi as an example? Why not use Klingons?

It's almost like your "immigrants can't be violent because then my philosophy falls apart" thing holds even in a fantasy scenario.

No, immigrants are not violent in reality. They're probably a lot more peaceful than the native population, if anything.

But that doesn't mean the scenario of a group of overwhelmingly violent immigrants desiring entry into a peaceful society is logically impossible. I'd like to explore that scenario. You can't, because it would render your philosophy defunct.

In your philosophy, no matter how many of a group murders, self-defence against the next member of that group cannot be preemptive. So an army could just take off their uniforms and say they were refugees, start killing people en masse, and it would never be okay to do anything to anybody except the one who shot the bullet or those who directly aided him. They could even line up in a united front, and Jeff would be like, "No, no, you can't just shoot back! They're individuals! They have to be treated as such! No way to see exactly who those bullets came from, so tough luck. Gotta just let 'em kill you."
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: A Libertarian Approach To Foreign Policy
Reply #23 - May 29th, 2019 at 10:44am
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The Opposition wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:24am:
And that's a great philosophy.

And it holds if no one group is disproportionately violent.
A violent group is either a criminal gang or some sort of military unit engaged in warfare.

In the first instance, the individuals in the criminal gang should be punished when they engage in violence.

If there are two criminal gangs, and one is more violent that the other, the individuals in the more violent gang should be punished more severely when they commit acts of violence.

The principle doesn't change, individuals are responsible for their individual actions.
  

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Jeff
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Re: A Libertarian Approach To Foreign Policy
Reply #24 - May 29th, 2019 at 10:45am
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The Opposition wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:24am:
No, immigrants are not violent in reality. They're probably a lot more peaceful than the native population, if anything.

In fact they are only somewhat more law abiding than the native born.
  

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Jeff
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Re: A Libertarian Approach To Foreign Policy
Reply #25 - May 29th, 2019 at 10:49am
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The Opposition wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:24am:
In your philosophy, no matter how many of a group murders, self-defence against the next member of that group cannot be preemptive.
As you go on to note, it depends very much on the nature of the group.

I see that it's impossible for your hive mind to think of people as individuals, Too bad.

Anyway, if for some unknown reason three members of the Ladies Afternoon Tea and Poker Society murder their husbands, the answer is no, you can't just start preemptively killing the other ladies. Shocked
  

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Re: A Libertarian Approach To Foreign Policy
Reply #26 - May 29th, 2019 at 10:52am
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Jeff wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 10:44am:
A violent group is either a criminal gang or some sort of military unit engaged in warfare.


Only because this statement you made later happens to be true.

Jeff wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 10:45am:
The Opposition wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:24am:
No, immigrants are not violent in reality. They're probably a lot more peaceful than the native population, if anything.


In fact they are only somewhat more law abiding than the native born.


What if it was not true? What if two out of three immigrants from, let's say, Lithuania, ended up committing murder?

You can't address the case that your statement isn't true because your philosophy falls apart. You don't have the balls to state right-out that violent immigrants (if they existed) should be allowed to displace a peaceful host population through violence, but that's what your individualism calls for if what racists said was true: That immigrants are violent and intentionally kill and outbreed the host population (it happens to be untrue).
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: A Libertarian Approach To Foreign Policy
Reply #27 - May 29th, 2019 at 11:04am
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BobK71 wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:16am:
If and when the value of the dollar collapses, our entire living standard and social fabric would be in trouble.  This part of what the elites keep telling us is objectively true.

fixed that for you.   Wink

The dollar collapses a little each day.  It has lost over 97% of its value since 1913. 

97%      Shocked

  
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Jeff
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Re: A Libertarian Approach To Foreign Policy
Reply #28 - May 29th, 2019 at 4:19pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 10:52am:
What if it was not true? What if two out of three immigrants from, let's say, Lithuania, ended up committing murder?

What if pigs start to lay eggs? Will we call them chickens and start to use pork in halal/kosher foods?
  

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Jeff
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Re: A Libertarian Approach To Foreign Policy
Reply #29 - May 29th, 2019 at 4:22pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 10:52am:
You don't have the balls to state right-out that violent immigrants (if they existed) should be allowed to displace a peaceful host population through violence, but that's what your individualism calls for if what racists said was true: That immigrants are violent and intentionally kill and outbreed the host population (it happens to be untrue).
You're talking about the Huns or the Vandals sacking Rome and hanging around afterwords? That's at the level of warfare and invasion. We can talk about that if you want to, but not if you conflate it with immigration.

Make up your minds... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Edit: Not to imply that the Romans were peaceful... Some of them were, but their imperial governments were not. Not usually anyway.
  

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