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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Every Single Negative Right.... (Read 1058 times)
The Opposition
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Every Single Negative Right....
May 29th, 2019 at 9:49am
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Every negative right (one that prevents me from doing something rather than forces me to do something) a libertarian discovers is automatically legitimate. He has it, you can't question it, end of story.

Rights themselves can't be questioned.

Correct or incorrect?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Every Single Negative Right....
Reply #1 - May 29th, 2019 at 12:32pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:49am:
Rights themselves can't be questioned.

Correct or incorrect?

It depends. . . .

Natural rights cannot be questioned. 

Natural rights include Life, Liberty, the Pursuit of Happiness, self ownership, self defense, free thought, free speech, etc

Contrived rights CAN be questioned:

right to free health care

right to free education/college

right to work

right to affordable housing

right to Universal Basic Income
  
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EWS
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Re: Every Single Negative Right....
Reply #2 - May 29th, 2019 at 12:40pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 12:32pm:
Contrived rights CAN be questioned:

right to free health care

right to free education/college

right to work

right to affordable housing

right to Universal Basic Income


I love how people can magically put "Right to" in front of whatever they want and all of a sudden it's a right. If that's the case I feel that I have the right to be banging Britney Spears whenever I feel like it.

To play devils advocate a bit, I can see how some could try and lump free health care into the "life" portion of Life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness.  However no where in the bill of rights does it say you get anything for free, not a damn thing.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Every Single Negative Right....
Reply #3 - May 29th, 2019 at 1:04pm
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EWS wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 12:40pm:
I love how people can magically put "Right to" in front of whatever they want and all of a sudden it's a right.

Exactly. This is why I call these "contrived" rights.  They materialize out of thin air, as needed.


EWS wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 12:40pm:
To play devils advocate a bit, I can see how some could try and lump free health care into the "life" portion of Life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness.  However no where in the bill of rights does it say you get anything for free, not a damn thing.
That's quite a stretch.   Smiley

I would say that many people believe that Article 1 Sec. 8 gives them a "right" to a wealth redistribution - a welfare check every month:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States..."
  
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EWS
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Re: Every Single Negative Right....
Reply #4 - May 29th, 2019 at 1:22pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States..."


I think the key there is they are referring to the welfare of the country (i.e. public works, infrastructure, etc...) not the people per se 

But there is a lot of room for interpretation there, which is why The 5000 Year Leap is my #1 most recommended read, behind the constitution and the federalist papers that is.
  
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Every Single Negative Right....
Reply #5 - May 29th, 2019 at 2:55pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
I would say that many people believe that Article 1 Sec. 8 gives them a "right" to a wealth redistribution - a welfare check every month:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States..."


Whence do the people get the right to tax that they relied upon when empowering congress to tax?

  
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SkyChief
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Re: Every Single Negative Right....
Reply #6 - May 29th, 2019 at 4:49pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
Whence do the people get the right to tax that they relied upon when empowering congress to tax?

No individual has a "right" to tax.   

Article 1 Section 8 gives the federal government "the power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts..."

16th Amendment grants Congress the power to tax incomes, from whatever source derived.

That probably doesn't answer your question. . . . What are you asking, exactly?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Every Single Negative Right....
Reply #7 - May 29th, 2019 at 5:24pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
I would say that many people believe that Article 1 Sec. 8 gives them a "right" to a wealth redistribution - a welfare check every month:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States..."
In fact, as you know, the general Welfare is mentioned first in the Preamble to the Constitution...

To accept that it provides a power/duty/obligation to redistribute wealth is to accept that the transfer of wealth by government increases the welfare of the entire country, which means you accept that central planning works... But it doesn't.

Central planning is proven to fail in very many ways, and the founders in general knew it and opposed "leveling" schemes.
  

"Free hate speech"
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Jeff
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Re: Every Single Negative Right....
Reply #8 - May 29th, 2019 at 5:33pm
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EWS wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 1:22pm:
I think the key there is they are referring to the welfare of the country (i.e. public works, infrastructure, etc...) not the people per se 
Exactly, and the argument started almost immediately.

Many Federalists believed that creating a basic infrastructure would lead to the expansion of the economy and everybody would be better off, and they essentially won the argument (anti-federalists said there was no authority in the Constitution to do that and that it would lead to cronyism and a mercantile system) and canals and roads and railroads were built and the economy did expand and grow...

But you have to keep in mind that at the time they started using revenue to pay for infrastructure, the economy was small and there wasn't a lot of private capital available and there was almost no infrastructure.

Things have changed. Now, despite there being a flood of private capital available worldwide, revenue is used to build sports stadiums for rich team owners and the roads and bridges our grandparents paid for are not maintained or improved, and if they are, the costs are grossly inflated...
  

"Free hate speech"
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Every Single Negative Right....
Reply #9 - May 29th, 2019 at 7:57pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 4:49pm:
No individual has a "right" to tax.   


Agreed.

Quote:


Article 1 Section 8 gives the federal government "the power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts..."

16th Amendment grants Congress the power to tax incomes, from whatever source derived.


Right.  Just as, under the feudal system, the vassals would give the king the power to tax and under organized crime, the shop owners would give the kingpin the power to demand protection money and under fascism, street thugs grant power to tax to the leader they put in power.

Do they have the right to do that or just the power?

Quote:
That probably doesn't answer your question. . . . What are you asking, exactly?


Since you agree that there is no individual right to tax, do you believe that a group of individuals have a right as a collective to tax?  In other words, can people group together and thus grow new rights derived from their being in a group or can they only pool rights which they already have?  If it is the latter, then there can neither be a right to tax nor a right to grant power to tax.

But, of course, there can be a power to tax.  All you need is power.


  
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