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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Universal Declaration Of Human Rights (Read 709 times)
Jeff
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Re: Universal Declaration Of Human Rights
Reply #20 - Jun 4th, 2019 at 11:43am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 4th, 2019 at 11:06am:
The next person to say I don't have rights, I must simply accede again.
If you'd come to live in America, you could claim whatever rights you think you have... Or just keep saying you don't have rights because you aren't human, or just shut up about it and consult a lawyer or file a complaint in court whenever you think your rights have been violated. Smiley
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Universal Declaration Of Human Rights
Reply #21 - Jun 4th, 2019 at 10:25pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 4th, 2019 at 11:42am:
Here's the catch 22 for you.  For all that to work, you would have to have not resisted not having rights.  All of that would need to have been tacit.  Your resistance to having rights rights is exercising your rights, which proves you have them.


At most, it proves that I am wrong to argue with you about it. But I am correct.

kaz wrote on Jun 4th, 2019 at 11:42am:
More directly, if Jeff were to agree you have no rights and shoot you, we'd hang him by the nearest tree anyway because we wouldn't accept you had no rights.


If something like that really happened, it would be evidence that I had rights. Not proof, but still very good evidence. You would have no other logical reason to do as you suggest, and you're not crazy.

So far, the only entity on this planet that has treated me as if I had rights is the government.

I have witnessed Humans refraining from doing certain things to each other which they would prefer to do, which they would be better off if they did, but they refuse to do, simply because the other Human has rights. Insofar as there is no other logical reason for their refusal, it's proof. This isn't just one crazy person if rights don't exist - it's mass hysteria. That is ridiculously unlikely.

For example, the slaves in America were freed. This is not because the slaves rebelled successfully. This is not because the masters were better off without slaves. In fact the masters were worse off. There is no other logical explanation for the behaviour of abolitionism except that the slaves had rights. Many abolitionists owned slaves. They would not advocate their own detriment unless it was mandated by rights.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Universal Declaration Of Human Rights
Reply #22 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 7:29am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 4th, 2019 at 10:25pm:
So far, the only entity on this planet that has treated me as if I had rights is the government.

That's because a government was created in the U.S. (by the people of the U.S.) that is required to protect our rights and prohibited from trampling on them. It's certainly not because governments in general respect and protect rights.

Edit: We need to keep a close eye on that government, because it seems to be reverting to form and viewing itself as a Sovereign that has rights and may or may not grant privileges to us subjects... Cry
  

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kaz
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Re: Universal Declaration Of Human Rights
Reply #23 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 8:01am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 4th, 2019 at 10:25pm:
So far, the only entity on this planet that has treated me as if I had rights is the government


Now that's ironic because in reality, there is no way you have fewer rights than with government.  Government is just manipulating you for their own unbridled power.

The discussion on the guy who killed the guy is such a great example of that.   Who did government care about only in the trial it suppressed the evidence that they knew proved the guilt of the murderer to the point they actually let him go?  What rights did the dead wife or her husband have?  None.  They were victims of government gamesmanship.

The Constitution is to protect the innocent, not the guilty
  

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kaz
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Re: Universal Declaration Of Human Rights
Reply #24 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 8:03am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 4th, 2019 at 10:25pm:
There is no other logical explanation for the behaviour of abolitionism except that the slaves had rights


That argument might work had the North actually invaded the South to end slavery. They didn't, that's rewriting history.  They invaded to force the South to remain in the Union.  They even offered to codify slavery in the Constitution to end the rebellion, the South passed.  They even said that was their goal, Save the Union
  

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Jeff
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Re: Universal Declaration Of Human Rights
Reply #25 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 8:14am
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kaz wrote on Jun 5th, 2019 at 8:03am:
That argument might work had the North actually invaded the South to end slavery. They didn't, that's rewriting history.  They invaded to force the South to remain in the Union.  They even offered to codify slavery in the Constitution to end the rebellion, the South passed.  They even said that was their goal, Save the Union
Slavery was already protected by the Constitution. The slave states demanded it as a condition of ratifying the Constitution and joining the Union.

You ignore a lot of history to try to make the Union look like evil tyrants and aggressors who violated the "rights" of the slave states, but it's not convincing to anyone who has knowledge of the broader history of the time. (Edit: Or to any liberal minded person who realizes that states don't have rights, only people do.)

The reason for dragging the slave states back into the Union was to make it possible to end slavery in America.

The option was war anyway, since the CSA had every intention of trying to extend slavery into U.S. Territories, and the people of America were already fighting each other in the territories (prior to secession and the creation of the evil nasty CSA) over the issue of whether new states would be admitted as slave states or free states .
  

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kaz
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Re: Universal Declaration Of Human Rights
Reply #26 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 9:10am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 5th, 2019 at 8:14am:
The reason for dragging the slave states back into the Union was to make it possible to end slavery in America


You are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corwin_Amendment

Buchannan: Signed it

Lincoln:  "I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution—which amendment, however, I have not seen—has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service ... holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable"

"Just weeks prior to the outbreak of the Civil War, Lincoln sent a letter to each state's governor transmitting the proposed amendment, noting that Buchanan had approved it"

  

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The Opposition
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Re: Universal Declaration Of Human Rights
Reply #27 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 9:38am
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kaz wrote on Jun 5th, 2019 at 8:01am:
Now that's ironic because in reality, there is no way you have fewer rights than with government.  Government is just manipulating you for their own unbridled power.


That's entirely true.

However, they can't maintain said power if they behave like jungle monkeys and let the dominant run roughshod over the rest.

They do it when they can get away with it, but that's not every time.

Their society would crumble. They know this.

kaz wrote on Jun 5th, 2019 at 8:03am:
That argument might work had the North actually invaded the South to end slavery. They didn't, that's rewriting history.  They invaded to force the South to remain in the Union.  They even offered to codify slavery in the Constitution to end the rebellion, the South passed.  They even said that was their goal, Save the Union


Some abolitionists were Southerners.

...Who owned slaves.

Those ones were either hysterical masochists, or the slaves actually had rights.

Very solid evidence that at least some people have rights.

Now, if no Southerner was an abolitionist, and all we had was the political motive of the North to invade the South, there wouldn't be this evidence.

Some people have rights. There's evidence for it. If I also have rights, I need evidence.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: Universal Declaration Of Human Rights
Reply #28 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 10:47am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 5th, 2019 at 9:38am:
If I also have rights, I need evidence.


Actually, once again you just contradicted yourself.  You "need evidence" you don't have rights is clearly asserting rights
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Universal Declaration Of Human Rights
Reply #29 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 11:11am
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kaz wrote on Jun 5th, 2019 at 10:47am:
Actually, once again you just contradicted yourself.  You "need evidence" you don't have rights is clearly asserting rights


Why? It's not as if I can't overstep my rights (in this case by going beyond zero). Everyone can overstep their rights. People can assert that they have the right to murder. That doesn't mean they do; they're just wrong.

I may very well be wrong to argue about it.

But I am still correct that I have no rights.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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