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The Opposition
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The Libertarian Uncle
Jun 4th, 2019 at 10:14pm
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There was once an irredeemable welfare mum with a severely physically disabled child. The welfare mum had a brother who was a stalwart libertarian.

The child, though severely physically disabled, was intelligent and sensitive and always cared whether she did the right thing. Her uncle saw this in her and told her all about Libertarianism.

"Yes, it means you're stealing." said the Libertarian Uncle, having led the child expertly into the question. "You should get private charity if you cannot support yourself."

So the child began refusing to eat food that was bought with her mum's food stamps. She begged on the street for money, but her mum told the people not to give her any, thinking this was a ploy to get drugs, because, after all, that was often what the mum would do herself. The child had plenty of food to eat at home.

The next time the Libertarian Uncle visited, the child wept, heartbroken, and told him that she had been unsuccessful in getting any private charity.

She hadn't eaten in days. She pled with her uncle to buy her some food with the money he had earned on the free market, but he refused, saying that he wasn't obligated to help her, and scolding her for implying otherwise.

She was on the verge of eating what she knew was stolen food out of pure ravenous hunger.

"There's food here. It can't be wrong to eat it." she pled.

"Eat it if you want to. I won't stop you." the Libertarian Uncle replied. "But it is stolen, and living off the government as you and your mum are doing is absolutely wrong on every level."

After hearing this, the child went into the bathroom and slit her wrists. The mum lost a good bit of her welfare since she no longer had a disabled child.

Assuming we're dealing with an intellectually competent, but still impressionable child, has the uncle done anything wrong? He doesn't think so. He did rape the dead body, which was his motive all along, but that of course is no longer the child's property.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #1 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 7:23am
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Libertarians are all greedy and heartless? Nope, you're wrong again.

Let's argue that people who want to use government power to support that little girl are greedy and heartless because they feel absolved from offering her personal help since they support the welfare state providing for her using other people's money...

In fact, the percentage of greedy heartless people is probably about the same in libertarians as it is in other groups, but libertarians realize that, despite the high sounding ideals and the lovely promises of a welfare state, the reality of the welfare state is not even close to the ideal it promises, and in fact the bad unintended consequences of the welfare state outweigh it's benefits.

Edit: Here's an example of how the welfare state actually works, some real world results:

https://ktla.com/2019/06/04/l-a-county-to-release-results-of-homeless-count-on-t...
  
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kaz
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #2 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 7:23am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 4th, 2019 at 10:14pm:
There was once an irredeemable welfare mum with a severely physically disabled child. The welfare mum had a brother who was a stalwart libertarian.

The child, though severely physically disabled, was intelligent and sensitive and always cared whether she did the right thing. Her uncle saw this in her and told her all about Libertarianism.

"Yes, it means you're stealing." said the Libertarian Uncle, having led the child expertly into the question. "You should get private charity if you cannot support yourself."

So the child began refusing to eat food that was bought with her mum's food stamps. She begged on the street for money, but her mum told the people not to give her any, thinking this was a ploy to get drugs, because, after all, that was often what the mum would do herself. The child had plenty of food to eat at home.

The next time the Libertarian Uncle visited, the child wept, heartbroken, and told him that she had been unsuccessful in getting any private charity.

She hadn't eaten in days. She pled with her uncle to buy her some food with the money he had earned on the free market, but he refused, saying that he wasn't obligated to help her, and scolding her for implying otherwise.

She was on the verge of eating what she knew was stolen food out of pure ravenous hunger.

"There's food here. It can't be wrong to eat it." she pled.

"Eat it if you want to. I won't stop you." the Libertarian Uncle replied. "But it is stolen, and living off the government as you and your mum are doing is absolutely wrong on every level."

After hearing this, the child went into the bathroom and slit her wrists. The mum lost a good bit of her welfare since she no longer had a disabled child.

Assuming we're dealing with an intellectually competent, but still impressionable child, has the uncle done anything wrong? He doesn't think so. He did rape the dead body, which was his motive all along, but that of course is no longer the child's property.


Besides that you don't know how to capitalize, what is your point other than that you need psychiatric help?
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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SkyChief
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #3 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 11:32am
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I'm going to condense the story:

The State should have the power to redistribute wealth. Otherwise children will commit suicide - and  that will be blood on YOUR hands.

Naturally, as a libertarian. I disagree.

It is never acceptable or appropriate for the State to take a person's wealth or property by coercion.

N E V E R.

"I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the People under the pretense of taking care of them."  - Thomas Jefferson
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #4 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 10:01pm
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That's not the story. Just asking if the uncle did anything wrong.

I say he didn't, because I have the balls to say it. (Enter Jeff to tear me apart for saying it, then divert and derail until everyone forgets the issue and it's just you versus me.)

No, not all libertarians are greedy and heartless. But some are, because some people of every ideology are. You're going to have to deal with people like the uncle in your perfect society.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #5 - Jun 5th, 2019 at 10:23pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 5th, 2019 at 10:01pm:
That's not the story. Just asking if the uncle did anything wrong.

I say he didn't.

Oh.   I agree.   Smiley
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #6 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 7:22am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 5th, 2019 at 10:01pm:
That's not the story. Just asking if the uncle did anything wrong.



No, not all libertarians are greedy and heartless. But some are, because some people of every ideology are. You're going to have to deal with people like the uncle in your perfect society.
Libertarians are generally rational, so they don't expect that any society anywhere will ever be perfect. We don't even think it's moral to try to force communists to subscribe to our theories of rights and individual liberty, but we do think it's moral to keep collectivists from forcing collectivism on everyone else or to create thought police that will prevent us from advocating for rights and liberty.

Do you want to know if I think the Uncle was morally wrong, or legally wrong?

If you advocate for punishing people because they failed to act when you think they should have acted, just say so. It opens a really large can of worms...

If you think it's moral to browbeat children over political theories they probably aren't capable of understanding, I disagree. Spend your energy telling adults that the welfare state is wrong.

Edit: It's fine to explain to children the basics of property rights and individual responsibilities, and the superiority of charity over the forced transfer of wealth, but try not to browbeat starving children by making them feel they personally have done something wrong by eating food provided to them through state action.... They have not.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #7 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 9:13am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 6th, 2019 at 7:22am:
Do you want to know if I think the Uncle was morally wrong, or legally wrong?


I am asking if he should be punished.

Jeff wrote on Jun 6th, 2019 at 7:22am:
If you think it's moral to browbeat children over political theories they probably aren't capable of understanding, I disagree. Spend your energy telling adults that the welfare state is wrong.

It's fine to explain to children the basics of property rights and individual responsibilities, and the superiority of charity over the forced transfer of wealth, but try not to browbeat starving children by making them feel they personally have done something wrong by eating food provided to them through state action.... They have not.


Children are capable of understanding what's stealing and what isn't.

If your assertion is that your whole libertarian spiel is nothing but a political philosophy, just like any other, then it's a %$#&ing horrible one and the uncle should go to jail, because he killed that kid over nothing but his own personal opinions, which have already been weighed and measured, and by the political process we have, found wanting.

I don't believe libertarianism is just a political philosophy, though. If welfare is actually theft, it's not up for discussion like whether or not there should be a law against reckless endangerment and what the punishment should be.

There should not be welfare.

People should not get to vote on this.

There should be no discussion.

This is not a political philosophy.

This is not one person's opinion.

This is about whether or not people have a right to steal.

...They don't.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #8 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 10:30am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 6th, 2019 at 9:13am:
I am asking if he should be punished.


Telling him he's an asshole and shunning him would be appropriate.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #9 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 10:34am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 6th, 2019 at 9:13am:
Children are capable of understanding what's stealing and what isn't.

Yes, and they should be taught that it's wrong for them to steal, but calling a starving child a thief for eating food provided by a welfare program is idiotic nonsense. Wait until they are capable of making rational decisions for themselves about the morality or immorality of government transfer programs, and wait until they aren't starving before you present them with questions about morality.
  
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