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The Opposition
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #10 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 10:40am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 6th, 2019 at 10:34am:
Yes, and they should be taught that it's wrong for them to steal, but calling a starving child a thief for eating food provided by a welfare program is idiotic nonsense.


Then you really do believe Libertarianism is just another political philosophy.

...Just an opinion.

You don't believe it's that basic that welfare is theft.

You believe in some relevant difference existing between me yoinking your apple out of your hand, and the government doing it to give people welfare.

...And not just some meaningful difference, probably the biggest and most relevant difference imaginable: A child can be expected to understand that the former is wrong, but not the latter.

Essentially, you don't believe redistribution is really theft.

You just prefer the government keeps its mitts off your stuff, not because it's wrong for them to take it (though you pretend this) but because you like having more stuff.

The only trouble you seem to have with me is that I actually believe it's wrong on every level for the government to take your stuff.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #11 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 10:43am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 6th, 2019 at 9:13am:
If welfare is actually theft...
Welfare in my opinion is a misuse of collected revenue and a bad idea because it's unintended consequences are worse than the problem it intends to solve; in fact it makes the problem worse.

People have voted for representatives who have, in my opinion, made a mistake.

If you think welfare is simply theft, who is doing the stealing is a crucial question.

I say it's not the recipients but rather the representatives who have interpreted the Constitution to say that wealth transfers are permitted. This is a political question about the law.

If you want to remove it from the political realm and simply make it a matter of common law theft, you will have to wait until you are Dictator, at which time you might as well dispense with the fictions of voting and representatives, because they will no longer have any real meaning. Everyone will just be required to bow to your will.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #12 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 10:52am
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So in other words, yes, the only problem is me taking what you people say about redistribution and theft seriously.

You don't mean it.

1. A child can be expected to understand the difference between right and wrong on a fundamental level. (Jeff accepts this.)
2. A child cannot be expected to understand that welfare is theft.
---------
∴ Welfare = Theft is not true on a basic level

...In other words, it's political bullshit. Just an opinion. Nothing more.

Sorry if I thought property rights were more than just an opinion.

Sorry if I thought they were basic.

Sorry if I thought they were something a child could easily understand.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #13 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 11:11am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 6th, 2019 at 10:52am:
So in other words, yes, the only problem is me taking what you people say about redistribution and theft seriously.

I think the fundamental problem is the way your brain works. It's probably related closely to whatever is going on in your brain that makes you a sociopath. Cry

You're really just making the "taxes are theft" claim again.
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #14 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 5:02pm
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I'm imagining I'm a fly on the wall, listening in while Uncle Nick teaches Little Suzy political theory and the law...

Uncle Nick: You do know right from wrong by now don't you Suzy?

Suzy: Yesss... I think so...

Uncle Nick: Well you must know at least that stealing is wrong, don't you? You aren't an evil little sneak thief are you...

Suzy: NO, I mean yes, I know its wrong to steal... I'm not a Sneakythief! (tears) (sobs) (shudders)

Uncle Nick: Well Suzy, if you take that food and eat it, you will be a thief, because it's not your food! You didn't earn it! (more tears) (frantic sobs) (Suzy wets her pants)

Suzy: But... it was given to me...

I didn't steal it, I didn't, I wouldn't steal (stamps foot) I'm not like that, I'm a good girl...

Aren't I...(Sobs, floods of tears.)

I thought I was a good girl... (convulsive sobs) (floods of tears) ( a river of snot)

Uncle Nick: But Suzy, you must know that that food was stolen from other children, children who did have a right to it...

You know that stealing is one of the top ten reasons God sends people to burn in Hell... Do you know that or not you weasely little sneak thief!

Answer me!

Suzy: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I thought it was being given to me... Take it away! Take it away!
I'd rather starve and die and go to heaven than eat stolen food and burn forever in Hell. (Turns head away, shows signs of fixed determination to starve herself.)



One of my Uncles was somewhat like that... He was about as far from libertarian as it's possible to get.

  

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The Opposition
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #15 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 8:56pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 6th, 2019 at 5:02pm:
I'm imagining I'm a fly on the wall, listening in while Uncle Nick teaches Little Suzy political theory and the law...

Uncle Nick: You do know right from wrong by now don't you Suzy?

Suzy: Yesss... I think so...

Uncle Nick: Well you must know at least that stealing is wrong, don't you? You aren't an evil little sneak thief are you...

Suzy: NO, I mean yes, I know its wrong to steal... I'm not a Sneakythief! (tears) (sobs) (shudders)

Uncle Nick: Well Suzy, if you take that food and eat it, you will be a thief, because it's not your food! You didn't earn it! (more tears) (frantic sobs) (Suzy wets her pants)

Suzy: But... it was given to me...

I didn't steal it, I didn't, I wouldn't steal (stamps foot) I'm not like that, I'm a good girl...

Aren't I...(Sobs, floods of tears.)

I thought I was a good girl... (convulsive sobs) (floods of tears) ( a river of snot)

Uncle Nick: But Suzy, you must know that that food was stolen from other children, children who did have a right to it...

You know that stealing is one of the top ten reasons God sends people to burn in Hell... Do you know that or not you weasely little sneak thief!

Answer me!

Suzy: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I thought it was being given to me... Take it away! Take it away!
I'd rather starve and die and go to heaven than eat stolen food and burn forever in Hell. (Turns head away, shows signs of fixed determination to starve herself.)


Yep. That's pretty much the conversation.

There's one very minor, but very relevant deviation from what I intended: You have the uncle threaten the child with Hell.

That's a threat. That's force. That's aggression.

I simply intended for him to tell her it was wrong, and that's enough to get exactly the reaction out of her you wrote, because she wants to do what's right. No carrot and/or stick necessary. She's actually a good person. She's not brainwashed or terrified into acting like one.

Jeff wrote on Jun 6th, 2019 at 5:02pm:
One of my Uncles was somewhat like that... He was about as far from libertarian as it's possible to get.


Every family seems to have one. Usually they don't have kids of their own.

My point remains. If you were really a libertarian, like I strive to be, you'd say there was nothing wrong with what the uncle did.

But you're not. You don't believe property rights are that important.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #16 - Jun 7th, 2019 at 6:00am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 6th, 2019 at 8:56pm:
Yep. That's pretty much the conversation.

There's one very minor, but very relevant deviation from what I intended: You have the uncle threaten the child with Hell.

That's a threat. That's force. That's aggression.

I simply intended for him to tell her it was wrong, and that's enough to get exactly the reaction out of her you wrote, because she wants to do what's right. No carrot and/or stick necessary. She's actually a good person. She's not brainwashed or terrified into acting like one.


Fine, remove that part of their conversation.

You really do think Little Suzy is capable of differentiating between her stealing food from another hungry child, and the government using tax revenues to provide her with food? Uncle Nick is calling them both "stealing" and laying the blame for welfare "theft" at Suzy's feet if she eats the food she needs.

Maybe she can understand the difference, but I doubt it. First she would have to understand theories of government that say both that welfare is a moral duty and obligation of the government and conversely that welfare is an overreach of government power prohibited by the Constitution and a wrong construction of our Supreme Law that actually permits the government to "steal" and redistribute what it has stolen, producing many bad unintended consequences...

Quite a few adults have a real problem making that distinction.
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #17 - Jun 7th, 2019 at 6:03am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 6th, 2019 at 8:56pm:
Every family seems to have one. Usually they don't have kids of their own.

My point remains. If you were really a libertarian, like I strive to be, you'd say there was nothing wrong with what the uncle did.

My Uncle had four children, all of whom left home at very young ages.

What was wrong about what Uncle Nick did was that he presented a hungry child with a moral dilemma based on sophisticated theories of rights and government which she almost certainly was not capable of understanding.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #18 - Jun 7th, 2019 at 9:46am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 7th, 2019 at 6:00am:
You really do think Little Suzy is capable of differentiating between her stealing food from another hungry child, and the government using tax revenues to provide her with food? Uncle Nick is calling them both "stealing" and laying the blame for welfare "theft" at Suzy's feet if she eats the food she needs.


I don't want her to differentiate between them because they are both theft and equally wrong!
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Uncle
Reply #19 - Jun 7th, 2019 at 10:09am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 7th, 2019 at 9:46am:
I don't want her to differentiate between them because they are both theft and equally wrong!
But because she is very unlikely to be able to make that differentiation, you think it's a good thing Uncle Nick convinced her to starve herself.

Anyway, which part of welfare is theft? Who is doing the stealing? Lay it out for me so even a person of my average intellect can understand it. Thanks.
  

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