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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies (Read 1361 times)
kaz
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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #80 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 9:24am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 9:11am:
Thank you for answering. I was wrong that libertarians cannot answer that question.

I also want to ask if you think what they did in Minority Report (catching criminals before they act) was wrong. The whole point of the movie seemed to be that it was wrong, but sci-fi is always against punishment of any sort. They will never show you a scenario where punishment would be right.

We already, ideally, catch criminals before they act, but I would assume the relevant difference is between a school shooter with a room full of assault rifles and drawings of bullies bleeding to death, and someone who may not even have decided to act yet.

My second question is about a punishment that does not make up for the benefit the criminal gained by committing the crime. In other words, the criminal is still ahead because he committed the crime, even after being punished. Is it even possible for such a punishment to be just?


First of all, I've said clearly they should pay more than restitution in this thread more than a dozen times.  Felonies are criminal court, not civil.  You just clearly know nothing about the American criminal justice system.

Well, you certainly hope you catch them when they have committed to the act but before they do it so you can prove they were intending to commit the act, but that usually doesn't happen.

For citizens, I don't believe that government should be allowed to entrap them.  I think it should be in the Constitution though that government can entrap government officials and bureaucrats.  Then we should be trying to entrap the hell out of them
« Last Edit: Jun 11th, 2019 at 7:28am by kaz »  

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Jeff
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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #81 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 6:38pm
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I think this is pertinent to the topic:

https://www.cato.org/policy-report/mayjune-2019/our-broken-justice-system

From the article:

"More than 95 percent of all criminal convictions today are obtained through plea bargains — that is, supposedly voluntary confessions. One of the most important questions in criminal law and criminal justice reform is why so few people are interested in exercising their right to force the government to prove their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of a unanimous jury.

There appear to be two main reasons. First, the plea-bargaining process can be — and often is — extraordinarily coercive. Second, the criminal jury trial itself has been fundamentally transformed over time so that it is much less valuable to criminal defendants now than it was earlier in our nation’s history."


I think this is pertinent because with the charges piled on Peterson, he is almost certain to plead guilty to at least one or two of them in order to avoid the rest.


More from the article:

"There appear to be two main reasons. First, the plea-bargaining process can be — and often is — extraordinarily coercive. Second, the criminal jury trial itself has been fundamentally transformed over time so that it is much less valuable to criminal defendants now than it was earlier in our nation’s history. I will briefly summarize coercive plea bargaining, which gets significant attention, and then discuss in more detail the radical devaluation of the criminal jury trial, which does not receive nearly the attention it merits."

Worth a read.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #82 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 7:25am
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This might be topical too... Maybe it wanders off a bit too far-

https://reason.com/video/you-can-get-5-years-in-prison-for-selling-llama-poop-an...

No, I'm not trying to absolve Peterson or say that reckless/negligent endangerment shouldn't be punished.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #83 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:19am
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kaz wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 9:24am:
First of all, I've said clearly they should pay more than restitution in this thread more than a dozen times.  Felonies are criminal court, not civil.  You just clearly know nothing about the American criminal justice system.


Why do you keep saying this? I'm not asking about the American justice system. Libertarians introduce the idea that the government can be (and often is!) wrong. So I don't care what any particular country actually does; I care what ought to be done.

So they should pay more than simple restitution. Therefore it is impossible that mere restitution alone would be just.

Does this have anything at all to do with the fact that if the punishment for stealing $50 was a simple return of the $50, the criminal could only win (by not getting caught), and couldn't lose, even if caught?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #84 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:41am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:19am:
Why do you keep saying this? I'm not asking about the American justice system. Libertarians introduce the idea that the government can be (and often is!) wrong. So I don't care what any particular country actually does; I care what ought to be done


Simple logic isn't your thing.  I have been endorsing that he be charged with felonies all through the thread.  I'm saying that answers your question that I endorse punishment, not just repaying money. 

Sheesh, nothing is every obvious enough for you to grasp it on your own.  I have to explain every simple discussion to you

The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:19am:
Does this have anything at all to do with the fact that if the punishment for stealing $50 was a simple return of the $50, the criminal could only win (by not getting caught), and couldn't lose, even if caught?


For the umpteenth time, yes.  Again, all through the thread I've said that the criminal justice system's first priority is to prevent the crime from happening again.  I gave a list of four objectives.  Three of them were geared towards that.

Is there anything you can figure out or regain on your own?  Or is life for you pretty much that the butt obvious and repeated points are simply over your head?
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #85 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:49am
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kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:41am:
Simple logic isn't your thing.  I have been endorsing that he be charged with felonies all through the thread.  I'm saying that answers your question that I endorse punishment, not just repaying money. 

Sheesh, nothing is every obvious enough for you to grasp it on your own.  I have to explain every simple discussion to you


Yes, you do, because I've learned that with libertarians, they will pretend something's obvious without once stating it clearly, so they can claim they never made that claim later.

kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:41am:
For the umpteenth time, yes.  Again, all through the thread I've said that the criminal justice system's first priority is to prevent the crime from happening again.  I gave a list of four objectives.  Three of them were geared towards that.


So, would you mind stating clearly that it's about making sure the criminal loses? In other words, that he doesn't reasonably expect to benefit by his criminal act?

kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:41am:
Is there anything you can figure out or regain on your own?


Not moral standards. Those are grey and go by other peoples' guts.

Principles don't apply at extremes, and I have no way of knowing what will be declared extreme.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #86 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:54am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:49am:
Yes, you do, because I've learned that with libertarians, they will pretend something's obvious without once stating it clearly, so they can claim they never made that claim later.


That I have said that clearly all through the thread is only not clear to someone as overtly stupid as you, Jeff, burnsred or Tom Palveen


The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:49am:
So, would you mind stating clearly that it's about making sure the criminal loses? In other words, that he doesn't reasonably expect to benefit by his criminal act?


kaz:  I support charging the Coward of Broward with felonies
Opposition:  But should we punish criminals?
kaz:  Yes, I just said that
Opposition:  Got it.  But should we punish criminals?  No one will answer the question
kaz:  Um .. yes, what about yes don't you understand?  Yes, we should punish criminals for committing crimes
Opposition:  Finally, someone answered the question.  So kaz, should we punish criminals?

How would you know if I stated it not?  You can't read
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #87 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:16am
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My questions are about why and how we should punish criminals and it ties into what you can look at if someone claims a punishment is too harsh.

See how when you gave a clear answer to whether restitution should be the limit of punishment in post 75, I immediately thanked you for it?

kaz wrote on Jun 9th, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Of course not.


The Opposition wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 9:11am:
Thank you for answering. I was wrong that libertarians cannot answer that question.


Libertarians have one argument: "You're stupid!"

You're just like Leftists. Their card is, "You're racist!"

Keep playing the %$#& out of your one card as the world ignores you. The world is even starting to ignore Leftists too.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #88 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:32am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:16am:
My questions are about why and how we should punish criminals and it ties into what you can look at if someone claims a punishment is too harsh.

See how when you gave a clear answer to whether restitution should be the limit of punishment in post 75, I immediately thanked you for it?


First of all, that was in the scenario I laid out.

You said that in post 75.  Then in post 85 you asked me to say it again.

kaz:  I support charging the Coward of Broward with felonies
Opposition:  But should we punish criminals?
kaz:  Yes, I just said that
Opposition:  Got it.  But should we punish criminals?  No one will answer the question
kaz:  Um .. yes, what about yes don't you understand?  Yes, we should punish criminals for committing crimes
Opposition:  Finally, someone answered the question.  So kaz, should we punish criminals?

Of course I'm insulting you.  You, Jeff, burnsred and Tom Palveen are a continual third grade discussion.  You just keep repeating the same inane points and everything flies over your head.

You all use words wrong when you like the way they sound.  You all will quote a post and ask a question that is answered in the post that you quoted.  Sometimes you cut the answer from the post you quoted.  You all need butt obvious arguments explained to you on a continual basis.  None of you are capable of building on points in a conversation.  None of you remember prior conversations ever.

The four of you are all 50 First Dates.  You're deja vu all over again
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #89 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:38am
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kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:32am:
Opposition:  Finally, someone answered the question.  So kaz, should we punish criminals?


You're misrepresenting the discussion.

The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:16am:
My questions are about why and how we should punish criminals and it ties into what you can look at if someone claims a punishment is too harsh.


kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:41am:
The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:19am:
Does this have anything at all to do with the fact that if the punishment for stealing $50 was a simple return of the $50, the criminal could only win (by not getting caught), and couldn't lose, even if caught?


For the umpteenth time, yes.  Again, all through the thread I've said that the criminal justice system's first priority is to prevent the crime from happening again.  I gave a list of four objectives.  Three of them were geared towards that.


If you'd stop insulting me for five seconds, this is what I want to build on.

Specifically the scenario with the $50.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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