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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies (Read 1807 times)
kaz
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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #90 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:41am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:38am:
You're misrepresenting the discussion.


Actually, you pointed out I accurately recalled your first half of the red in post 75 and I responded by pointing out the second half of the red in post 85.  That was referenced, your denial is just lame
  

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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #91 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 12:14pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:16am:
My questions are about why and how we should punish criminals and it ties into what you can look at if someone claims a punishment is too harsh.

Look to the law for answers to these questions. If you don't think criminals should be punished, you can advocate for changes in the law.

The power of juries to acquit was always a cornerstone of individual liberty, standing against the power of the state and enabling people to decide that a law was unjust or a punishment was too harsh... But you didn'r read the link I posted to an excellent article talking abut just that. Oh well.
  

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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #92 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 8:50pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:41am:
The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:19am:
Does this have anything at all to do with the fact that if the punishment for stealing $50 was a simple return of the $50, the criminal could only win (by not getting caught), and couldn't lose, even if caught?


For the umpteenth time, yes.  Again, all through the thread I've said that the criminal justice system's first priority is to prevent the crime from happening again.  I gave a list of four objectives.  Three of them were geared towards that.


If you'd stop insulting me for five seconds, this is what I want to build on.

Specifically the scenario with the $50.

Jeff wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 12:14pm:
Look to the law for answers to these questions.


No.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #93 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:06pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 8:50pm:
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For the umpteenth time, yes.  Again, all through the thread I've said that the criminal justice system's first priority is to prevent the crime from happening again.  I gave a list of four objectives.  Three of them were geared towards that.


If you'd stop insulting me for five seconds, this is what I want to build on.

Specifically the scenario with the $50


OK, what about it?

And you never "build on" anything.  You go to the hyperbolic extreme and just argue for that endlessly.  But what's the question?

If you want me to stop insulting you, the question better not be do I just believe the $50 should be returned or do I believe there should be punishment beyond the $50
  

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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #94 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:05pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:06pm:
OK, what about it?

And you never "build on" anything.  You go to the hyperbolic extreme and just argue for that endlessly.  But what's the question?

If you want me to stop insulting you, the question better not be do I just believe the $50 should be returned or do I believe there should be punishment beyond the $50


So first imagine we can only catch the thief 50% of the time. Then, if we only take back the $50, it's a good bet for the thief to steal. Even if we take away $100, it's a wash - an even bet.

I'd like to go back to the original topic and discuss it along those lines. The fellow in question gained a lot from having a job he couldn't do when push came to shove.

Imagine (just for the sake of clarification) a fellow that was identical to Peterson in every way, except that instead of applying for a better-paying security job that surely has a little added over minimum wage to compensate for risk, this identical fellow went and worked at McDonald's as he ought to have in the first place.

Peterson still got all that extra pay. He is ahead of the identical fellow who said to himself, "Shit, I probably can't do this if push comes to shove. I will take the lesser paying job with no risks."

Can a harsher punishment be justified on account of this?

I'm not asking simply if we should punish more harshly. I'm asking you to justify it to the doubters on this basis:

It's not okay for the fellow who did the wrong thing, because he did the wrong thing, to come out ahead of the identical one who did the right thing. If that is so, more people would do the wrong thing on the basis of it being a good bet, and we have no basis anymore for declaring it to be the wrong thing.

This is where I was hoping to get LBM to explain Expected Value because as both a gambler and a teacher, surely he knows about it, and the way I was going to phrase it was that unless the punishment is harsher, the Expected Value of the criminal action is positive, which is unacceptable.

Basically, I'm positing that the function of punishment is to make the Expected Value of crime negative, and a punishment that doesn't do that is insufficient.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #95 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 6:17am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:05pm:
So first imagine we can only catch the thief 50% of the time.
You must have smart thieves where you live.
  

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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #96 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 6:21am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:05pm:
This is where I was hoping to get LBM to explain Expected Value because as both a gambler and a teacher, surely he knows about it, and the way I was going to phrase it was that unless the punishment is harsher, the Expected Value of the criminal action is positive, which is unacceptable.

Yes, thieves probably think they won't be caught, but thieves in general aren't too smart. Often they do get caught, and steal again anyway... You say that means they aren't being punished harshly enough, I say it's because they are mostly stupid losers.

How do you want to punish the person who stole that $50 so that they don't ever steal again?
  

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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #97 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 6:24am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:05pm:
Imagine (just for the sake of clarification) a fellow that was identical to Peterson in every way, except that instead of applying for a better-paying security job that surely has a little added over minimum wage to compensate for risk, this identical fellow went and worked at McDonald's as he ought to have in the first place.

Peterson still got all that extra pay. He is ahead of the identical fellow who said to himself, "Shit, I probably can't do this if push comes to shove. I will take the lesser paying job with no risks."

Can a harsher punishment be justified on account of this?

What?


  

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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #98 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 6:53am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:05pm:
Imagine (just for the sake of clarification) a fellow that was identical to Peterson in every way, except that instead of applying for a better-paying security job that surely has a little added over minimum wage to compensate for risk, this identical fellow went and worked at McDonald's as he ought to have in the first place.

Peterson still got all that extra pay. He is ahead of the identical fellow who said to himself, "Shit, I probably can't do this if push comes to shove. I will take the lesser paying job with no risks."

Can a harsher punishment be justified on account of this?


Yes.  What the fvck is wrong with you?  This is the same question you keep asking, but with a lot more words.  You're an idiot.

YES HE SHOULD BE PUNISHED.   He should not just pay restitution and he should not just pay risk adjusted restitution.

He not only didn't do his job, but he lied, he misdirected incoming police to form a perimeter instead of going into the building.  The guy should be hammered, specifically to deliver a message to every other Scott Peterson out there.  Retire!

What about that don't you understand?  What about that is too complicated for you to grasp?  How stupid are you?  No one cares about money at this point.  The guy should spend the rest of his life in jail.  The victim's families should sue him and take every dollar he has.  Not that he will ever need it spending the rest of his life in jail
  

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Re: Parkland "Coward Of Broward" Is In Jail - Charged With 11 Felonies
Reply #99 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 7:26am
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kaz wrote on Jun 12th, 2019 at 6:53am:
Yes.  What the fvck is wrong with you?  This is the same question you keep asking, but with a lot more words.  You're an idiot.

YES HE SHOULD BE PUNISHED.   He should not just pay restitution and he should not just pay risk adjusted restitution.

He not only didn't do his job, but he lied, he misdirected incoming police to form a perimeter instead of going into the building.  The guy should be hammered, specifically to deliver a message to every other Scott Peterson out there.  Retire!

What about that don't you understand?  What about that is too complicated for you to grasp?  How stupid are you?  No one cares about money at this point.  The guy should spend the rest of his life in jail.  The victim's families should sue him and take every dollar he has.  Not that he will ever need it spending the rest of his life in jail
I think you'll be disqualified from sitting on his jury... But he'll probably do the plea bargain thing, unless they want to make an example of him, which they probably do.

Anyway, how stupid were the incoming police to take instructions from a not-a-cop school guard, to essentially cede command of the situation to Peterson? Aren't they also at least partly liable?

Maybe they were cowards too, and liked Peterson's idea of taking cover and waiting...
  

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