Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing (Read 1080 times)
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10124
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #10 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 10:51am
Print Post  
This issue has nothing to do with racism or slavery.

It has everything to do with property rights, freedom of association, and freedom of religion.

Should the government force a Muslim baker to bake a gay wedding cake?   Of course not.

Then why can the government force a Christian to bake a gay wedding cake when the Bible condemns homosexuality just as much as the Quran?

Leviticus 20:13
If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 43082
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #11 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:14am
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 10:51am:
This issue has nothing to do with racism or slavery.

The original laws concerned racial discrimination and required businesses to serve black people. The rulings that said such laws were permitted opened the door to requiring that you can't discriminate against gay people either.

The fact that "progressives" have dragged us down a rabbit hole where only straight white men are capable of "discrimination" and others, notably "people of color" are justified in exercising their rights of free association (which apparently they still have) to create organizations which exclude whites makes any discussion of freedom of association into a race baiting queer baiting pissing match that ends up most often with straight white men being declared inherently evil.

That something is wrong about all this is easily seen. What started out as a high minded remedy for the injustice of largely locking black people out of the common life of communities has become a tool of oppression used by the government to force people into associations they abhor and/or are conscientiously forbidden to enter into.

How about "All Doctors must perform abortions"? Does that follow from "All bakers must bake wedding cakes with gay messages like 'Bob and Bill Forever' on them?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9822
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #12 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:28am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:14am:
The fact that "progressives" have dragged us down a rabbit hole where only straight white men are capable of "discrimination" and others, notably "people of color" are justified in exercising their rights of free association (which apparently they still have) to create organizations which exclude whites makes any discussion of freedom of association into a race baiting queer baiting pissing match that ends up most often with straight white men being declared inherently evil.

That something is wrong about all this is easily seen.


Is this you having a rare moment of honesty or are you just baiting us?

Jeff wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:14am:
What started out as a high minded remedy for the injustice of largely locking black people out of the common life of communities has become a tool of oppression used by the government to force people into associations they abhor and/or are conscientiously forbidden to enter into.

How about "All Doctors must perform abortions"? Does that follow from "All bakers must bake wedding cakes with gay messages like 'Bob and Bill Forever' on them?


You know, if you wanted a fair solution (and I'm only saying this because you are calling it an injustice to lock minorities out of community life), then the ruling would be right, but only in the case that the flower shop had a monopoly, which would never happen anyway in the free market.

Can you walk five steps down the block and buy other flowers? Then why didn't you?!

The only answer is to deliberately harass people for their religious beliefs.

People suffering actual crushing discrimination of the kind you describe as an injustice would try to hide the fact that they were gay so they could get the flowers.

But they didn't want the flowers, or they would have gone elsewhere.

They wanted the law suit.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 43082
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #13 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 3:43pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:28am:
You know, if you wanted a fair solution (and I'm only saying this because you are calling it an injustice to lock minorities out of community life), then the ruling would be right, but only in the case that the flower shop had a monopoly, which would never happen anyway in the free market.

I think it is unjust (and stupid) to judge people by their appearance or sexual preferences, but it shouldn't be illegal. I believe people do have a right to associate, or not associate, with whoever they want, and that forcing them to do things for people they choose not to do things for violates that right.

There are probably exceptions, but cakes and flower arrangements aren't them. In some circumstance where some gay person was dying, and only one doctor was available who was capable of saving that person, and the doctor refused because he hated gay people, there might be cause to charge the doctor with negligence or something... I'm not sure. Do doctors lose their rights of free association when they become doctors? What do you think?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9822
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #14 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 9:58pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 3:43pm:
I think it is unjust (and stupid) to judge people by their appearance or sexual preferences, but it shouldn't be illegal. I believe people do have a right to associate, or not associate, with whoever they want, and that forcing them to do things for people they choose not to do things for violates that right.

There are probably exceptions, but cakes and flower arrangements aren't them. In some circumstance where some gay person was dying, and only one doctor was available who was capable of saving that person, and the doctor refused because he hated gay people, there might be cause to charge the doctor with negligence or something... I'm not sure. Do doctors lose their rights of free association when they become doctors? What do you think?


I think you don't really believe even that and you really were just baiting me.

Jeff: It was unjust that black people were excluded from the community!
Opposition: Alright, how about only have anti-discrimination laws if the discriminatory have a monopoly?
Jeff: Statist! Everyone should have the right to discriminate at all times!
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 43082
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #15 - Jun 9th, 2019 at 6:58am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 9:58pm:
Jeff: It was unjust that black people were excluded from the community!
Opposition: Alright, how about only have anti-discrimination laws if the discriminatory have a monopoly?
Laws prohibiting discrimination violate rights of free association.

How do you determine that a group of people who seem to be united in discriminating against another group of people have a monopoly?

Making sure that state and local governments governments aren't codifying discrimination is a good thing that must always  be done, but if the solution goes beyond that and begins to require discrimination in other ways, it's just as wrong.

It's a "progressive" idea that the hearts and minds of people can be changed by enacting laws that govern their behavior by requiring them to act in specified ways. It doean't actually work, and the "remedy" can be just as wrong as the disease. For instance, the Soviet Union spent generations requiring that people act as if they were communists, and even went so far as to start raising very young children as communists... The end result was Putin's repressive Oligarchy.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Senior Member
****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #16 - Jun 9th, 2019 at 9:20am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jun 9th, 2019 at 6:58am:
Laws prohibiting discrimination violate rights of free association.

How do you determine that a group of people who seem to be united in discriminating against another group of people have a monopoly?

Making sure that state and local governments governments aren't codifying discrimination is a good thing that must always  be done, but if the solution goes beyond that and begins to require discrimination in other ways, it's just as wrong.

It's a "progressive" idea that the hearts and minds of people can be changed by enacting laws that govern their behavior by requiring them to act in specified ways. It doean't actually work, and the "remedy" can be just as wrong as the disease. For instance, the Soviet Union spent generations requiring that people act as if they were communists, and even went so far as to start raising very young children as communists... The end result was Putin's repressive Oligarchy.


The part in blue is unfortunately incorrect.  The part in green is an extreme example that government regulations can change the way people think.

People's opinions about things like abortion, gay marriage, inter-racial marriage, desegregation and imminent domain have been changed by court opinions.  Prior to Roe v. Wade, forty-nine states had abortion laws more restrictive than were allowed by that decision and there was no mass voter movement to legalize it.  Since Roe v. Wade the right to abortion has been accepted by a majority of people.  I never hear anyone decrying gay marriage anymore, that change was almost instantaneous after the court's decision.  I think in that case, people kind of "woke up" to the idea that they had no right to dictate other people's marriages.*

For good or for bad, government does provide leadership and change opinions. 

*Too bad they still don't get the libertarian idea of keeping government out of marriage altogether.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Senior Member
****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #17 - Jun 9th, 2019 at 9:21am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 3:43pm:
I think it is unjust (and stupid) to judge people by their appearance or sexual preferences, but it shouldn't be illegal. I believe people do have a right to associate, or not associate, with whoever they want, and that forcing them to do things for people they choose not to do things for violates that right.

There are probably exceptions, but cakes and flower arrangements aren't them. In some circumstance where some gay person was dying, and only one doctor was available who was capable of saving that person, and the doctor refused because he hated gay people, there might be cause to charge the doctor with negligence or something... I'm not sure. Do doctors lose their rights of free association when they become doctors? What do you think?


Wouldn't that be up to the community?  If the doctors don't like having to treat gay people, shouldn't they just move to a community that doesn't require it?

If not, how would a doctor prevent such a law from being enforced.  Through violence?

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 7988
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #18 - Jun 9th, 2019 at 10:09am
Print Post  
Little Biq Man wrote on Jun 9th, 2019 at 9:21am:
Wouldn't that be up to the community?  If the doctors don't like having to treat gay people, shouldn't they just move to a community that doesn't require it?

If not, how would a doctor prevent such a law from being enforced.  Through violence?



A law that would require a doctor to treat a gay person (or a black or whatever) is screwed up on multiple levels.

1) Who would want treatment from someone treating you at gunpoint?

2) It almost never happens.  Wasn't it Pittsburgh where medically trained Jews in the congregation treated the shooter?

3) So for something that almost never happens, we give government a massive power to force citizens to serve each other.  Government abuses any and all power.  They may turn around and force citizens to bake each other cakes and photograph each other's weddings.  Oh yeah, they already did ...
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 43082
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #19 - Jun 9th, 2019 at 10:48am
Print Post  
Little Biq Man wrote on Jun 9th, 2019 at 9:20am:
The part in blue is unfortunately incorrect.  The part in green is an extreme example that government regulations can change the way people think.

People's opinions about things like abortion, gay marriage, inter-racial marriage, desegregation and imminent domain have been changed by court opinions.
It is not. All that repression and brainwashing in the Soviet Union did not make people into communists or eradicate religious belief.

In almost every instance, public opinion leads court decisions rather than following them.

In the case of abortion, public opinion is divided and has been since before Roe. The rest (other than eminent domain) have followed the change in public opinion...

Do you really think people now believe that it's a good thing for the government to take private property for the benefit of other private individuals?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy