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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing (Read 1089 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #50 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:39am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 9:50am:
If you're interested in discussing the current issue of forcing people to bake cakes for others, it's better if you can ground your discussion in the realities of the past that relate to the same issue. Past laws and the Supreme Court decisions that overturned them are the best place to start.

If you aren't interested in learning the real background, why would you think your discussion would be of value to anyone?


For every honest discussion you have with me, I will read a link you post.

I've already read probably a hundred and you just divert, bait, and ridicule, like you did in this thread. You said it was an injustice that black people were locked out of the community, then promptly attacked me for agreeing with it.

*** doctors absolutely have a right to refuse service ***
You're trying to bait me into saying that if a doctor has no right to refuse service, then he can't refuse service even to a poor black person, so you can clip the quote somehow and claim I'm saying doctors don't have a right to refuse service.
*** doctors absolutely have a right to refuse service ***

You constantly refuse to state your own positions and ask me to state mine so you can ridicule whatever I pick. There's not a correct answer. You even change your own positions if I do, so you can ridicule what was your previous choice.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #51 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:50am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:39am:
You constantly refuse to state your own positions and ask me to state mine


kaz:  I support charging the Coward of Broward with felonies
Opposition:  But should we punish criminals?
kaz:  Yes, I just said that
Opposition:  Got it.  But should we punish criminals?  No one will answer the question
kaz:  Um .. yes, what about yes don't you understand?  Yes, we should punish criminals for committing crimes
Opposition:  Finally, someone answered the question.  So kaz, should we punish criminals?

How would you know if he stated his opinion or not?  You can't read
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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The Opposition
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Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #52 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:59am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:14am:
What started out as a high minded remedy for the injustice of largely locking black people out of the common life of communities has become a tool of oppression used by the government to force people into associations they abhor and/or are conscientiously forbidden to enter into.


The Opposition wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:28am:
You know, if you wanted a fair solution (and I'm only saying this because you are calling it an injustice to lock minorities out of community life), then the ruling would be right, but only in the case that the flower shop had a monopoly, which would never happen anyway in the free market.


Jeff wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 3:43pm:
I think it is unjust (and stupid) to judge people by their appearance or sexual preferences, but it shouldn't be illegal.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/injustice

You'd rather play with words than address issues.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #53 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 12:05pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 9:59am:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/injustice

You'd rather play with words than address issues.
The issue was that freed slaves were subjected to state and local laws that segregated them from the community and denied them opportunities, including the opportunity to vote.

The 14th and 15th Amendments were the secondary response, because the Civil Rights Act of 1865 wasn't being obeyed by the former slave state governments.

SCOTUS, in the Civil Rights Cases declared the Civil Rights Act of 1865 unconstitutional because it made private discrimination illegal, which the court determined Congress had no power to do, but that also tossed out the section of the Civil Rights Act that said governments were prohibited from discriminating, something Congress does have a duty to prohibit.

Despite the 14th and 15th Amendments, the Hayes Compromise gave tacit permission to former slave state governments to pass discriminatory laws, and since federal troops were also withdrawn from the south, that's exactly what happened, and legally enforced racial discrimination continued in the south until the 1960s.

This is pertinent to the cake baking discussion because the SCOTUS decision in the Civil Rights Cases correctly correctly held that Congress has no power to ban private discrimination. I believe that stands as a precedent that has apt application in the cake baking controversy.

But yes, private discrimination is unjust, but it is not illegal, and Congress has no power to make it illegal. Neither does SCOTUS have any power to tell people what they must do.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #54 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 8:55pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 12:05pm:
But yes, private discrimination is unjust, but it is not illegal, and Congress has no power to make it illegal. Neither does SCOTUS have any power to tell people what they must do.


Using the word unjust this way is deceitful.

Most people already use it to categorise things that they think should be illegal. And there's already a term for something wrong that shouldn't be illegal: Immoral.

Do you have a word for things that should be illegal? You already object to the term aggression when I stick to the NAP in situations you don't like.

But I'll remember from now on that you're just baiting me, and you don't want an honest discussion.

You were baiting me with the question about doctors letting people die. You asked as if you're going to let people make up their own mind; as if the issue is open for discussion. But it's not, and that's the only reason you asked. Of course doctors have the right to refuse service. (Until Jeff reverses his position.)
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #55 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 6:05am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 8:55pm:
Using the word unjust this way is deceitful.

Most people already use it to categorise things that they think should be illegal. And there's already a term for something wrong that shouldn't be illegal: Immoral.

But I think private discrimination is unjust, not immoral...

What moral code are you using to say it's immoral for me to discriminate? Suppose I don't invite you to my party because I hate evil sociopaths... How is that immoral?

Suppose I think short bald people are generally inferior, not quite fully human in fact... (I see that as an unjust classification of people based on their appearance.)

Are you saying it's immoral because of some religious dogma? That God says I should love everyone, even short bald people and evil sociopaths?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #56 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 6:06am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 8:55pm:
You already object to the term aggression when I stick to the NAP in situations you don't like.

Because you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word aggression, you constantly misuse it.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #57 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 6:11am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 8:55pm:
You were baiting me with the question about doctors letting people die. You asked as if you're going to let people make up their own mind; as if the issue is open for discussion. But it's not, and that's the only reason you asked. Of course doctors have the right to refuse service. (Until Jeff reverses his position.)
My question was, and is, will a doctor who refuses services be charged with a crime in our country today, and also, should they be? If a child dies because a doctor refuses to treat it when the doctor could have easily saved the child's life, has the doctor failed in her duty and opened herself to being charged with some type of criminal neglect?
  
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #58 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 4:29pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 12th, 2019 at 6:11am:
My question was, and is, will a doctor who refuses services be charged with a crime in our country today, and also, should they be? If a child dies because a doctor refuses to treat it when the doctor could have easily saved the child's life, has the doctor failed in her duty and opened herself to being charged with some type of criminal neglect?


As long as we have representative democracy to pass laws and professional regulations and a civil tort system that grants power to low-IQ juries to rob who they please to pay off who they want to, doctors will always be liable to punishment if they pick and choose patients based on anything besides medical need.

Interesting phrase, "criminal neglect."  I'm not sure that in a libertarian system, such a crime is possible.  Other than perhaps the crime Clinton was clearly guilty of:  negligently handling classified information.  But in a case like that a person voluntarily accepts that risk by signing off on the training they received prior to getting access.



  
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Jeff
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Re: Uh Oh - Here We Go Again With The Gay Wedding Cake Thing
Reply #59 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 8:45pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Jun 12th, 2019 at 4:29pm:
As long as we have...professional regulations...
You mean regulation of professions?

I agree, that's not a good thing or anything our government should be doing. The justification is claimed to be that regulating professions is in the interest of our health and safety, but that is an unproven supposition, and there is significant evidence that regulating professions does harm to the general population while enriching the regulated professions.
  
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